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A serious question for theists
#31
RE: A serious question for theists
(November 6, 2016 at 9:24 pm)Lek Wrote: God sacrificed his only son for the world.  What is so weak about that?

What sacrifice?  Jesus died and then supposedly came back to life, and then went to Heaven to be with God.  Some sacrifice.  More like a temporary inconvenience.
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
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#32
RE: A serious question for theists
(November 8, 2016 at 1:09 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote:
(November 6, 2016 at 9:24 pm)Lek Wrote: God sacrificed his only son for the world.  What is so weak about that?

What sacrifice?  Jesus died and then supposedly came back to life, and then went to Heaven to be with God.  Some sacrifice.  More like a temporary inconvenience.

Yeah, a savior suffering the ravages of Hell (or eternal separation from God or what have you) eternally in place of those "deservedly" hell-bound people who believe and accept this sacrifice in humility and gratitude strikes me as vastly more impressive than the temporary suffering and subsequent victory of the Christian savior.

Mind you, I don't wish to suggest that there was anything merely "inconvenient" about the scourging and crucifixion of Jesus, any more than I would any other person who has been tortured to death. It must have been awful in ways I can only dimly imagine and never (I hope) understand. But it was awful precisely because it happened to a man, not God-in-the-flesh. Once Jesus' alleged divinity is put on the table, the whole thing is cheapened, in my view. Yes, I know that Christians like to have it both ways: he was equally God and equally man and suffered just as any man would. But that's an article of faith and twisted Trinitarian "logic" -- not a fact. If his victory was assured as part of God's (Jesus'?) plan, then Doubting Thomas is right: a really bad morning and half an afternoon, followed by an eternity reigning in Heaven. Meh.

By contrast, another savior figure, Prometheus, strikes me as having incurred a much worse fate. And leaving myth aside, human history is sadly full of examples of people who suffered just as much, if not considerably more, than Jesus is said to have suffered, crass though it be to compare such horrors.
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#33
RE: A serious question for theists
(November 6, 2016 at 6:01 am)ApeNotKillApe Wrote:
(November 6, 2016 at 5:01 am)goombah111 Wrote: anyway, satan is the god of this world
"Satan, who is the god of this world" 2 Corinthians 4:4

Also, Jesus is a door.

"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." John 10:9
jesus doesnt exist and never did. the historical book known as the bible is nothing more than the oddysseyeyy
"Satan, who is the god of this world" 2 Corinthians 4:4 hath blinded the minds of them which believe not
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#34
RE: A serious question for theists
Meh, so what if he suffered "as a man".  If what is described in the NT is all the suffering that's required to wash away the consequences of every sin that man has ever and will ever engage in, then we're a species of fucking saints who don;t need any redemption to begin with.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#35
RE: A serious question for theists
(November 8, 2016 at 1:09 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: What sacrifice?  Jesus died and then supposedly came back to life, and then went to Heaven to be with God.  Some sacrifice.  More like a temporary inconvenience.

Rhythm Wrote: Meh, so what if he suffered "as a man".  If what is described in the NT is all the suffering that's required to wash away the consequences of every sin that man has ever and will ever engage in, then we're a species of fucking saints who don;t need any redemption to begin with.


Jesus suffered all the physical and psychological pains and suffering and death you'd expect in the entire passion and crucifixion narrative. What makes it different, at least what Christians claim, is that combined with all of that suffering, Jesus suffered all of the physical and psychological and moral pain and suffering and death of not merely every human who has or will ever live, but every thing that has or ever will exist. What we "see" in his wounds in the passion and crucifixion contain not merely his suffering, but the suffering and lacking of everything in creation. He took all of that shit and united it to his own passion, cross and death so that he can tell us each that he is there when we suffer, and he suffers with us. He is co-passionate (i.e. compassionate) with all of creation, even if that same creation rejects him.

In return for accepting the shittiness of our human condition, as focused and manifested into a few agonizing hours and death "as a man", he does not ask a thing. He simply gives you the gift of his divine condition, as focused and manifested into an eternity of a divinely-human life lived with God. What's more, is that he won't make you wait for that eternity. He gives you a foretaste of that life here and now "as we wait for the redemption of our bodies."

He was suffering and dying with us, ALL OF US, through his humanity, so that we could live with him through his divinity.
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#36
RE: A serious question for theists
(November 5, 2016 at 6:43 pm)dyresand Wrote: How do you exactly know if God/Jesus even loves you?
The bible only supports god loving a select few people so yeah you can't exactly use it.

You don't know, not really it is taken on Faith. But as Christians we believe that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was the revelation of God's love for his creation.
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