If Yahweh exists, is he a fraud?

[Drich]

...And what if those 'rules' were a reflection of a greater purpose or a greater understanding?

What if those petty rules were a simplified version of some pretty heavy stuff, that if we can not be faithful to the small God wants us no where around on a universal scale?

Ever put your kid in charge of something petty (like a gold fish or an ant farm) just to see what they do with the 'power?' Just to see if they would be responsible with something larger like a cat or dog?

Again is it so far out of your wheel house you can't equate us in all of our foolish glory, being nothing more than simple children to God?

...and if 'worship' wasn't on the menu from the beginning?

or maybe your the one in school and you are not studying for the final exam.

What if WHATEVER. Hardly seems a reasonable basis on which to believe in something that won't simply show up and say "Look at me, I'm really here!" 

You guys started the 'what if..' don't be mad if you have thought it through.

And if we're such simpletons, how can we possible be expected to divine The Truth out of a very old book that espouses some lovely things, but also so many awful things as well?

Alone.. Your not. Hence so many different expressions of the same religion.

If however we seek God on His terms The same Holy Spirit that inspired said book will show you it's meaning.

And all with no evidence to back it up.

That's an untrue cliche' Evidence is everywhere. You simply dismiss what is initially offered.

And I know you claim to not see any contradictions, so I won't bother arguing with you on that, the same as I don't find any sense in arguing with one who believes gravity on this planet is optional. 

Not much into aeronautics I see. Better you stay away from such 'scary things.'

As far as being a student goes, I've done my homework. That's what you and so many like you seem to assume: that if we just read it and listened then we'd see the light.

Strike 1

Well, guess what; I've read most of the Bible

strike 2.

I was brought up in a Christian household and I'm a former believer.

Strike 3

When I began to doubt the existence of the god I was brought up to believe, I really went to work looking for Him.

What if you had it wrong? What if the god you were brought up to believe in did not reflect the God of the bible?
Would the God of the bible then be obligated to support your version of him just because you grew believing 'X'?

And I never found Him. I spent countless hours reading both on my own and in formal study, learning the academic arguments for and against God, and thinking and discussing the subject, and at the end, the only reasonable conclusion I came to was that there are no gods. 

Now in all of your reading I am sure you came across the parable of the wise and foolish builder right?

What if... Looking, reading and studying the god you grew up believing in was like building your house/Faith on sand??? What would happen to your faith when the winds and rain of life come? Will your foundation, Will Your GOD support the faith you built on it?

According to Christ no...

God will only support your faith/belief (house) if you build it on Christ... Not the god you grew up with even if they share the same name and alot of similarities.

God will only support/Answer prayer/Full fill the promises He has made to believers if said believers are indeed worshiping the God of the bible.

And the thing is, I'm still open to it.

Then seek Him on His terms and not on your own.
God is not going to meet you 1/2 way. He has given you a mustardseed's worth of faith and expects you to plant it in Him. Meaning the God found in the bible and not some religious version of that God.

If some piece of evidence were to come along that was quite convincing, I'd believe.

What if God made himself know to you? and made Himself available to you? Not a genie to trade deeds for wishes or a lab rat to experiment on but say allowed you a peek into the Kingdom on His terms? Is that evidence or are you looking for something your friends would believe first then when you saw it wa safe and no one would make fun of you, then you would believe?

But there isn't. If there is a god, I really hope that it expects us to use our minds and come to our own conclusions based on hard, thoughtful work.

Here's the thing sport.. Be carefule what you wish for. If using your mind and thinking got you to this comfortable place... Then you are not involved in 'hard thoughtful work.'

A thing with that much power surely can't want creatures that amount to obedient farm animals. What a small god that would be. And what a cruel god it would be to punish its uncomprehending creation for all of eternity for using the only thing that makes us unique.

I'm sorry, but your god and its book just don't stand up.

Again you wrongfully assume that the universe revolves around you and what you think God should be... Again set aside you failed version of God. Do you honestly think out of 33k incarnations of God Christianity boasts of, you got the right one out of the gate? As you so proud as to think your efforts as meger as they maybe encompasses an exhaustive search?

All you have done is eliminate 1 version of God that in fact you know he will not support. For you and that version of God it would be illogical to assume anything other than what you have found... What is equally illogical? Your version is the only possible version of God.

So what are you supposed to do search all 33K?

No.

All anyone need do is Ask, Seek, and knock as outlined in luke 11. And God will open the door to you. But again on His terms only, otherwise know He will patently sit just on the otherside of any terms or conditions you place on

[vorlon13]

Is Yahweh a fraud ?

Well, it occurs to me the answer might lie in scripture.


When Jesus intoned for His followers to 'Defraud not', I thought He was just having a brain fart. But then I see this thread and realize Christ has anticipated the query.



Neat trick, Jesus, what card am I thinking of ?

[Opoponax]

What if WHATEVER. Hardly seems a reasonable basis on which to believe in something that won't simply show up and say "Look at me, I'm really here!" 

You guys started the 'what if..' don't be mad if you have thought it through.

And if we're such simpletons, how can we possible be expected to divine The Truth out of a very old book that espouses some lovely things, but also so many awful things as well?

Alone.. Your not. Hence so many different expressions of the same religion.

If however we seek God on His terms The same Holy Spirit that inspired said book will show you it's meaning.

And all with no evidence to back it up.

That's an untrue cliche' Evidence is everywhere. You simply dismiss what is initially offered.

And I know you claim to not see any contradictions, so I won't bother arguing with you on that, the same as I don't find any sense in arguing with one who believes gravity on this planet is optional. 

Not much into aeronautics I see. Better you stay away from such 'scary things.'

As far as being a student goes, I've done my homework. That's what you and so many like you seem to assume: that if we just read it and listened then we'd see the light.

Strike 1

Well, guess what; I've read most of the Bible

strike 2.

I was brought up in a Christian household and I'm a former believer.

Strike 3

When I began to doubt the existence of the god I was brought up to believe, I really went to work looking for Him.

What if you had it wrong? What if the god you were brought up to believe in did not reflect the God of the bible?
Would the God of the bible then be obligated to support your version of him just because you grew believing 'X'?

And I never found Him. I spent countless hours reading both on my own and in formal study, learning the academic arguments for and against God, and thinking and discussing the subject, and at the end, the only reasonable conclusion I came to was that there are no gods. 

Now in all of your reading I am sure you came across the parable of the wise and foolish builder right?

What if... Looking, reading and studying the god you grew up believing in was like building your house/Faith on sand??? What would happen to your faith when the winds and rain of life come? Will your foundation, Will Your GOD support the faith you built on it?

According to Christ no...

God will only support your faith/belief (house) if you build it on Christ... Not the god you grew up with even if they share the same name and alot of similarities.

God will only support/Answer prayer/Full fill the promises He has made to believers if said believers are indeed worshiping the God of the bible.

And the thing is, I'm still open to it.

Then seek Him on His terms and not on your own.
God is not going to meet you 1/2 way. He has given you a mustardseed's worth of faith and expects you to plant it in Him. Meaning the God found in the bible and not some religious version of that God.

If some piece of evidence were to come along that was quite convincing, I'd believe.

What if God made himself know to you? and made Himself available to you? Not a genie to trade deeds for wishes or a lab rat to experiment on but say allowed you a peek into the Kingdom on His terms? Is that evidence or are you looking for something your friends would believe first then when you saw it wa safe and no one would make fun of you, then you would believe?

But there isn't. If there is a god, I really hope that it expects us to use our minds and come to our own conclusions based on hard, thoughtful work.

Here's the thing sport.. Be carefule what you wish for. If using your mind and thinking got you to this comfortable place... Then you are not involved in 'hard thoughtful work.'

A thing with that much power surely can't want creatures that amount to obedient farm animals. What a small god that would be. And what a cruel god it would be to punish its uncomprehending creation for all of eternity for using the only thing that makes us unique.

I'm sorry, but your god and its book just don't stand up.

Again you wrongfully assume that the universe revolves around you and what you think God should be... Again set aside you failed version of God. Do you honestly think out of 33k incarnations of  God Christianity boasts of, you got the right one out of the gate? As you so proud as to think your efforts as meger as they maybe encompasses an exhaustive search?

All you have done is eliminate 1 version of God that in fact you know he will not support. For you and that version of God it would be illogical to assume anything other than what you have found... What is equally illogical? Your version is the only possible version of God.

So what are you supposed to do search all 33K?

No.

All anyone need do is Ask, Seek, and knock as outlined in luke 11. And God will open the door to you. But again on His terms only, otherwise know He will patently sit just on the otherside of any terms or conditions you place on

Oh yeah. This is why I don't engage in these "debates." Thanks for reminding me.

[Drich]

You guys started the 'what if..' don't be mad if you have thought it through.

Alone.. Your not. Hence so many different expressions of the same religion.

If however we seek God on His terms The same Holy Spirit that inspired said book will show you it's meaning.
That's an untrue cliche' Evidence is everywhere. You simply dismiss what is initially offered.
Not much into aeronautics I see. Better you stay away from such 'scary things.'

Strike 1

strike 2.

Strike 3

What if you had it wrong? What if the god you were brought up to believe in did not reflect the God of the bible?
Would the God of the bible then be obligated to support your version of him just because you grew believing 'X'?

Now in all of your reading I am sure you came across the parable of the wise and foolish builder right?

What if... Looking, reading and studying the god you grew up believing in was like building your house/Faith on sand??? What would happen to your faith when the winds and rain of life come? Will your foundation, Will Your GOD support the faith you built on it?

According to Christ no...

God will only support your faith/belief (house) if you build it on Christ... Not the god you grew up with even if they share the same name and alot of similarities.

God will only support/Answer prayer/Full fill the promises He has made to believers if said believers are indeed worshiping the God of the bible.

Then seek Him on His terms and not on your own.
God is not going to meet you 1/2 way. He has given you a mustardseed's worth of faith and expects you to plant it in Him. Meaning the God found in the bible and not some religious version of that God.

What if God made himself know to you? and made Himself available to you? Not a genie to trade deeds for wishes or a lab rat to experiment on but say allowed you a peek into the Kingdom on His terms? Is that evidence or are you looking for something your friends would believe first then when you saw it wa safe and no one would make fun of you, then you would believe?
Here's the thing sport.. Be carefule what you wish for. If using your mind and thinking got you to this comfortable place... Then you are not involved in 'hard thoughtful work.'


Again you wrongfully assume that the universe revolves around you and what you think God should be... Again set aside you failed version of God. Do you honestly think out of 33k incarnations of  God Christianity boasts of, you got the right one out of the gate? As you so proud as to think your efforts as meger as they maybe encompasses an exhaustive search?

All you have done is eliminate 1 version of God that in fact you know he will not support. For you and that version of God it would be illogical to assume anything other than what you have found... What is equally illogical? Your version is the only possible version of God.

So what are you supposed to do search all 33K?

No.

All anyone need do is Ask, Seek, and knock as outlined in luke 11. And God will open the door to you. But again on His terms only, otherwise know He will patently sit just on the otherside of any terms or conditions you place on

Oh yeah. This is why I don't engage in these "debates." Thanks for reminding me.

then why post a challenging pov in a debate forum?

oh, that's right, you want the upper hand, just not any of the heavy handed 'thought' that goes along with it. I will promptly roll over next time and just let you have your say. got it!

[Huggy Bear]

If a creator exists, the probability of it bearing any resemblance to this ridiculous humanoid projection is next to zero in my estimation. I'm sure whatever it is would find these stories pretty insulting, yet surprised people worship it regardless.

I would expect the creator to be unaware of our existence at all, much less the fact that we are self-aware. That's if the creator even realises they created all this in the first place, and it isn't an accidental side-effect of some process or other in its own reality.

Who said God is humanoid?

[Doubting Thomas]

The thing that I find so frightening is that so many people are willing to accept "God is good because he says he is, right there in the bible." So they will go to great lengths to dismiss all the horrible atrocities spelled out in the Old Testament. Or they dismiss everything with, "If God did it, then it is good, no matter what it is" and "God is all powerful, so he has the right to do whatever he wants." The idea that might makes right must also mean that Kim Jong Un can do whatever he wants because he's an all-powerful dictator.

But the funny thing is that all Christians seem willing to accept an all-powerful god which can do whatever it wants, but they won't accept someone like that as leader of their government.

[Drich]

The thing that I find so frightening is that so many people are willing to accept "God is good because he says he is, right there in the bible."  So they will go to great lengths to dismiss all the horrible atrocities spelled out in the Old Testament.  Or they dismiss everything with, "If God did it, then it is good, no matter what it is" and "God is all powerful, so he has the right to do whatever he wants."  The idea that might makes right must also mean that Kim Jong Un can do whatever he wants because he's an all-powerful dictator.

But the funny thing is that all Christians seem willing to accept an all-powerful god which can do whatever it wants, but they won't accept someone like that as leader of their government.

..And that is the thing I find so frightening about 'you people.' Is that you can yourself commit, live with and or support 'atrocities' far greater than anything ever recorded in the bible and literally have no clue what someone is talking about if they call your evil deeds by anything other than the name the popular culture has for it. And yet still think you are 'good' and therefore can judge the actions of any one or deity by your own example.

for instance, some website published a number of OT projected deaths.. being some where around 20 million people (being a high estimate.) google it.

Let's say it was 10x that amount and it was 200 million people.. that must make  God really evil huh? Because death no matter the reason is always bad!

Unless you do it, then it is justified.
Like for instance the 1.5 BILLION Babies that have been aborted since 1973...

But again, not babies, fetus, and not kill abort, so that means because you use the latin term for baby rather than the english term it's now ok.

You Hypocrite, but again your not because you spun your actions inorder to justify your murder of babies...

That is what is frightening about the self righteousness of this and future generations... Nothing is sacred nothing is off limits.. Just need a reason and everything can be a target.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's almost as if Drich thinks that Thomas there has been running around since '73 ripping babies out of stomachs or something, lol?  That'd be a strange hobby, don't you think?

[Minimalist]

Who said God is humanoid?

Your book.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,


Gen 1

[Edwardo Piet]

The thing that I find so frightening is that so many people are willing to accept "God is good because he says he is, right there in the bible."  So they will go to great lengths to dismiss all the horrible atrocities spelled out in the Old Testament.  Or they dismiss everything with, "If God did it, then it is good, no matter what it is" and "God is all powerful, so he has the right to do whatever he wants."  The idea that might makes right must also mean that Kim Jong Un can do whatever he wants because he's an all-powerful dictator.

But the funny thing is that all Christians seem willing to accept an all-powerful god which can do whatever it wants, but they won't accept someone like that as leader of their government.

Indeed. It's what philosophically becomes "Divine Command Theory".

The essence of which is:

"What is truth? Authority".

And following from that, if this imaginary authority claims goodness then it truly must be right about such goodness by virtue of it being the most authoritarian about it... it doesn't matter if it's imaginary because the authoritarianism of it represents its truth rather than how it corresponds to a normal conception of reality.

It all starts from the unsound premise of "Truth is that which is authoritarian."

Essentially it's the doctrine of "because I say so" and might makes right, even if the mighty source is unreal. It's allowing one's entire conceptualization of "truth" to be run by authority. It's The Dogma Of The Almighty Gaslighter.