A Nun's Views on Abortion

[Minimalist]

Exactly.  Do not ever kid yourself that you are one of the movers and shakers of the church. They have their own agenda.

[Catholic_Lady]

You're grasping at straws to take away credit where credit is due because of your prejudice. When good people do good things, you still try to twist it in a way that isn't good only because they were Catholic people doing it through the Church.

[Minimalist]

You really need to open your eyes about what your church is.

https://www.thestreet.com/story/13295788...-tell.html

NEW YORK (TheStreet) -- Feeling guilty about investing in "sin" stocks, like makers of guns, cigarettes and alcohol products? Don't. Over the course of its history of investing, the Catholic Church has done much worse. 
In the 1960s, Italian media uncovered evidence that the Vatican had invested in entities that conflict directly with the church's holy mission, including Istituto Farmacologico Serono, a pharmaceutical company that made birth control pills, and Udine, a military weapons manufacturer. There have also been unconfirmed rumor of church money in firearms manufacturer Beretta and companies with activities in gambling and pornography. It has been linked to dealings with Nazi gold during World War II as well.
The Catholic Church has a history of corruption, and it is a notoriously opaque institution. Sexual abuse accusations (and the consequent cover-ups) have put it in the headlines most recently, but it has been at the center of numerous scandals over the years, ranging from accusations of ties to the mafia in Rome to allegations of stealing babies in Chile and Spain.

Learn.

[Shell B]

I didn't see Min say at all that it wasn't good people doing good things. In fact, quite the contrary. He's saying it's people doing good things, not the church.

You mentioned that the people and the church are not separate entities. Try moving into the palace, um churches, at Vatican City and telling them you're not a separate entity. Religion is big business. Sure, there are a lot of small churches and groups of people within the church doing good, but the credit belongs to the people who do it, not Catholicism itself. If that's the case, then you have to take equal credit for the child rape allowed in vast numbers by members of your church. If the charity is the church, so is the rampant child abuse.

[Catholic_Lady]

I didn't see Min say at all that it wasn't good people doing good things. In fact, quite the contrary. He's saying it's people doing good things, not the church.

You mentioned that the people and the church are not separate entities. Try moving into the palace, um churches, at Vatican City and telling them you're not a separate entity. Religion is big business. Sure, there are a lot of small churches and groups of people within the church doing good, but the credit belongs to the people who do it, not Catholicism itself. 

If they are Catholic people motivated by their Catholic faith and doing charity that was organized through their Church and using Church donations, how can that not be called Catholic Charity? What would it have to be for it to be considered "real" Catholic Charity, if not that?  

If that's the case, then you have to take equal credit for the child rape allowed in vast numbers by members of your church. If the charity is the church, so is the rampant child abuse.

I would agree with you if Church doctrine actually taught that raping children and/or covering up rape was good and was what we should do. Then those men would be acting on their religious beliefs, and yes, it would be the fault of "the Church" as a whole and not merely the fault of the individuals involved.

[vorlon13]

Sister Joan Chittister, a Benedictine nun.

"I do not believe that just because you're opposed to abortion, that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed.

And why would I think that you don't?

Because you don't want any tax money going there.

That's not pro-life.

That's pro-birth.

We need a much broader conversation on what the mortality of pro-life is."

Thought? Comments?

I'd posit being goaded into any specific course of action, be it 'technically' good or not, by a demonstrated apostate that thinks she knows better than Moses AND the Apostle Paul is not going to count towards anybody's Salvation. 

Eyes on the prize, people !!!



Whys is pointing out the Tue Christian® stuff always left to me ?

[Shell B]

If they are Catholic people motivated by their Catholic faith and doing charity that was organized through their Church and using Church donations, how can that not be called Catholic Charity? What would it have to be for it to be considered "real" Catholic Charity, if not that?  

Are you all actually motivated by Catholicism or are you motivated by the pain and suffering and of others? Are you simply motivated to help mankind? I think, for most people, the urge to help others is intrinsic. It's organized through the church because that's where you all hang out. Our local food pantry organizes fundraisers for a huge variety of causes. We don't call it food pantry charity. The Catholic Church calls it Catholic charity because it puts their name on it. I suppose if the Vatican sold its literal treasury of wealth and gave it to the poor, I'd start calling it Catholic Charity. For now, it's just a huge conglomerate getting its folks to do good works in their name so they can hang on to their vast wealth.

I would agree with you if Church doctrine actually taught that raping children and/or covering up rape was good and was what we should do. Then those men would be acting on their religious beliefs, and yes, it would be the fault of "the Church" as a whole and not merely the fault of the individuals involved.

So, the church covering it up and moving these rapists around to keep them safe and their name unbesmirched does not make it look like what you "should" do by example? It's pervasive enough to be considered a uniquely Catholic problem. It would be super cool if Catholics started organizing protests against this and raising money to aid in the legal counsel of victims, etc. I would definitely be less likely to consider it Catholic rape if more Catholics actually did a thing about it.

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You like documentaries. Check this one out. http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/deliver-us-from-evil/ The coverups go all the way to the top. Charity doesn't.

I don't mean to insult your faith. That's your personal thing and I don't really care what you believe, as it's none of my business. I'm just pointing out how I feel about the Catholic Church and showing you the evidence for my beliefs. The Catholic Church is a particularly bad one in my book. That's not to say that Catholics are bad. It's just that the faith is run by a real-life evil empire whose dark influence has stretched for centuries. That a large or small number of Catholics are able to do good doesn't do enough to negate the bad. Still, I appreciate the good individuals do no matter what they do it in the name of. A serial killer could feed a starving child and I'd still be happy the kid got fed.

[Regina]

So, the church covering it up and moving these rapists around to keep them safe and their name unbesmirched does not make it look like what you "should" do by example? It's pervasive enough to be considered a uniquely Catholic problem. It would be super cool if Catholics started organizing protests against this and raising money to aid in the legal counsel of victims, etc. I would definitely be less likely to consider it Catholic rape if more Catholics actually did a thing about it

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Exactly. It just sounds like the "nothing to do with Islam" phenomenon.

We can argue back and forth until the cows come home, about whether the atrocities done in the name of religion are "true Catholicism" or "true Islam" and whether they're supported by the texts. What are people actually doing though, practically, to stop the abuse of power? Simply denouncing it as "un-Christian" is not a solution.

How powerful would it be if both practicing Catholics and ex-Catholics like myself (it's a community I grew up in myself btw) came together on it and held the clergy accountable for their crimes? Not in a "this isn't our religion" kind of way, but in a want for justice for the victims and for reform of the Church. That goes so much further. Even if we're not personally guilty, it's absolutely our responsibility to address it within our "community".

[Catholic_Lady]

If they are Catholic people motivated by their Catholic faith and doing charity that was organized through their Church and using Church donations, how can that not be called Catholic Charity? What would it have to be for it to be considered "real" Catholic Charity, if not that?  

1. Are you all actually motivated by Catholicism or are you motivated by the pain and suffering and of others? Are you simply motivated to help mankind? I think, for most people, the urge to help others is intrinsic. It's organized through the church because that's where you all hang out. Our local food pantry organizes fundraisers for a huge variety of causes. We don't call it food pantry charity. The Catholic Church calls it Catholic charity because it puts their name on it. I suppose if the Vatican sold its literal treasury of wealth and gave it to the poor, I'd start calling it Catholic Charity. For now, it's just a huge conglomerate getting its folks to do good works in their name so they can hang on to their vast wealth.

I would agree with you if Church doctrine actually taught that raping children and/or covering up rape was good and was what we should do. Then those men would be acting on their religious beliefs, and yes, it would be the fault of "the Church" as a whole and not merely the fault of the individuals involved.

2. So, the church covering it up and moving these rapists around to keep them safe and their name unbesmirched does not make it look like what you "should" do by example? It's pervasive enough to be considered a uniquely Catholic problem. It would be super cool if Catholics started organizing protests against this and raising money to aid in the legal counsel of victims, etc. I would definitely be less likely to consider it Catholic rape if more Catholics actually did a thing about it.

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3. You like documentaries. Check this one out. http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/deliver-us-from-evil/ The coverups go all the way to the top. Charity doesn't.

I don't mean to insult your faith. That's your personal thing and I don't really care what you believe, as it's none of my business. I'm just pointing out how I feel about the Catholic Church and showing you the evidence for my beliefs. The Catholic Church is a particularly bad one in my book. That's not to say that Catholics are bad. It's just that the faith is run by a real-life evil empire whose dark influence has stretched for centuries. That a large or small number of Catholics are able to do good doesn't do enough to negate the bad. Still, I appreciate the good individuals do no matter what they do it in the name of. A serial killer could feed a starving child and I'd still be happy the kid got fed.

1. It's motivated by both. I can only speak for myself, but from talking to others I feel like that's the case at least for most of us. Of course, every normal person feels compassion for others, but I feel like my faith has brought it to the forefront more so, has helped instill the values of charity, and has given an even deeper motivation to help the poor other than just because we feel sorry for them. That deeper motivation is the belief that all life is sacred and has inherent value, and that we are called to protect that which is sacred. I think it's unfair to dismiss all the charity we have done as a Church as having 0 ties to the faith we hold so close to our hearts. I kinda feel like you're doing the opposite of what you suggested I might be doing though. You're not attributing to Catholicism all the good things we have done, while attributing the bad. Even though the former is very much in line with Catholic moral laws, while the latter is very much against it. Also, when you say "they"... who do you mean by that?

2. Oh I agree that those people set a horrible example. That's why I think anything evil is even more horrible when it's done by priests/Church clergy than when it's done by literally anyone else. Because they have such a huge responsibility as men of God to set a good example and to actually practice what they preach.  But to answer your question, what we should do as Catholics is follow the teachings of the Church. We don't claim that our people are perfect, and we don't claim that we should follow whatever evil things some of them have done. You are correct that they had set a horrible example. But ultimately we are called to live by the laws of the Church, not by whatever evil things some of our most important people have done. Especially when it is so fundamentally against our moral code.

3. I'll see if I can find it on youtube once I finish the Leah episodes and the Paradise Lost documentary which I started while washing dishes.

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So, the church covering it up and moving these rapists around to keep them safe and their name unbesmirched does not make it look like what you "should" do by example? It's pervasive enough to be considered a uniquely Catholic problem. It would be super cool if Catholics started organizing protests against this and raising money to aid in the legal counsel of victims, etc. I would definitely be less likely to consider it Catholic rape if more Catholics actually did a thing about it

---

Exactly. It just sounds like the "nothing to do with Islam" phenomenon.

We can argue back and forth until the cows come home, about whether the atrocities done in the name of religion are "true Catholicism" or "true Islam" and whether they're supported by the texts. What are people actually doing though, practically, to stop the abuse of power? Simply denouncing it as "un-Christian" is not a solution.

How powerful would it be if both practicing Catholics and ex-Catholics like myself (it's a community I grew up in myself btw) came together on it and held the clergy accountable for their crimes? Not in a "this isn't our religion" kind of way, but in a want for justice for the victims and for reform of the Church. That goes so much further. Even if we're not personally guilty, it's absolutely our responsibility to address it within our "community".

The difference is though, that the Islamic terrorists kill because they believe it's what Allah wants them to do. They think what they're doing is good, and they are motivated by their religious beliefs. But the priests and other clergy involved in the sex abuse scandal either doing it themselves or by covering it up, were not motivated by their religious beliefs. They were motivated by their own gratification and their own selfishness and disregard for the victims in order to save face. What they did was very very much contrary to fundamental Catholic teaching. They acted against the Church's moral code, not in what they believed was in accordance with it.

[Regina]

The difference is though, that the Islamic terrorists kill because they believe it's what Allah wants them to do. They think what they're doing is good, and they are motivated by their religious beliefs. But the priests and other clergy involved in the sex abuse scandal either doing it themselves or by covering it up, were not motivated by their religious beliefs. They were motivated by their own gratification and their own selfishness and disregard for the victims in order to save face. What they did was very very much contrary to fundamental Catholic teaching. They acted against the Church's moral code, not in what they believed was in accordance with it.

I understand that to some degree, but at the end of the day this is associated with Catholicism now because, firstly, it was almost unique to the Catholic Church, and secondly it was swept under the carpet by The Pope to save face. That did not help, at all. When there was a massive cover up, rather than a call by the Pope to find the priests responsible, strip them of their position and have them sent to jail, it just made the whole Church look shady.

Simply saying "it's against the Church's moral code" is the absolute minimum I expect from practitioners of the faith. You are rightly outraged that the scandal happened, not because you're Catholic, not because you're practicing, but because you are a moral woman in your own right. I'm simply saying turn that outrage into something productive, take it further than "this isn't my religion". Actually rally Catholics to collectively condemn and call the clergy to justice, and maybe then people will start to see the Catholic faith in a different light.