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RE: Quitting church
December 18, 2016 at 1:48 pm
(December 15, 2016 at 5:16 pm)SteveII Wrote: If Erica want's to ask me who or what book, than she may. My advice to get all the information available was not to you.
But your advice wasn't to get all the information though, it was to listen to your unevidenced assertions and that alone. You've no interest in the truth, you've no interest in the complete information and you've no interest in openness, because all those things show the lie of your religious beliefs.
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RE: Quitting church
December 19, 2016 at 9:57 am
(December 18, 2016 at 1:48 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote: (December 15, 2016 at 5:16 pm)SteveII Wrote: If Erica want's to ask me who or what book, than she may. My advice to get all the information available was not to you.
But your advice wasn't to get all the information though, it was to listen to your unevidenced assertions and that alone. You've no interest in the truth, you've no interest in the complete information and you've no interest in openness, because all those things show the lie of your religious beliefs.
My advice was predicated on the assumption that Erica had encountered arguments that illustrated to her that her parents were wrong. I doubted a 17 year old is aware there is 2000 years of philosophical thought/justification (in tens of thousands of books) that backs up the beliefs of her parents. I also doubt that she realized there are no new arguments against Christianity--so the idea that we have somehow discovered "truth" lately is completely false.
Regarding seeking truth, there would be no way to evaluate the truth claims of Christianity without understanding the doctrines thoroughly (including answering the age-old objections to them).
It is your opinion that my religious beliefs are a lie. You could not possibly know that.
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RE: Quitting church
December 19, 2016 at 10:03 am
My honest advice? Don't go through with this.
Quit church after they've paid for all of your schooling and you no longer depend on them financially.
Unless you're completely confident there will be no consequences to you stopping your weekly church visits, just keep going.
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
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RE: Quitting church
December 19, 2016 at 7:44 pm
(December 19, 2016 at 9:57 am)SteveII Wrote: (December 18, 2016 at 1:48 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote: But your advice wasn't to get all the information though, it was to listen to your unevidenced assertions and that alone. You've no interest in the truth, you've no interest in the complete information and you've no interest in openness, because all those things show the lie of your religious beliefs.
My advice was predicated on the assumption that Erica had encountered arguments that illustrated to her that her parents were wrong.
No your advice was based simply on the fact that you hate to see others no longer believing in the bullshit you believe in.
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RE: Quitting church
December 19, 2016 at 8:16 pm
(This post was last modified: December 19, 2016 at 8:25 pm by Tonus.)
(December 11, 2016 at 6:26 pm)ericavdmaas Wrote: I actually did it!! The conversation wasn't exactly fun of course and my parents were sad, but it could have been a lot worse 
It feels really good to finally be done with this!
Good. Tough decisions like yours are always rough, but they are a necessary step to take as you grow into adulthood. Most importantly, it teaches you that making the difficult choices will pay off in the long term.
If your family does decide to try and drop religious hints now and then, try to be gracious in response. Remember that many religious people are taught that they're the ones being oppressed and persecuted, and it's easy for them to be convinced that what they're doing is innocuous and what you're doing is mean-spirited. After a while they will let up on it, or you will become so used to it that it won't bother you. Above all, resist the urge to join a game of "dueling memes" on Facebook. ;p
(December 15, 2016 at 4:27 pm)SteveII Wrote: I am assuming you have encountered information that you think proves your parents beliefs are wrong. Perhaps your parents are like mine and many other and do not have sophisticated answers to the sophisticated question/criticisms you may have encountered.
I think that this is true. Because religion tends to be deeply ingrained in our cultures, a surprising number of people know very little about the faith that they have claimed to follow for their whole lives. For many people, religion is just part of the general background noise of their lives until someone or something comes along and challenges it. It is at this point that they realize that many of the people around them who profess to be religious barely know or understand their faith, and sometimes this includes the most devout people they know, up to and including their local priests!
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Quitting church
December 19, 2016 at 8:45 pm
(December 19, 2016 at 10:03 am)operator Wrote: My honest advice? Don't go through with this.
Quit church after they've paid for all of your schooling and you no longer depend on them financially.
Unless you're completely confident there will be no consequences to you stopping your weekly church visits, just keep going.
That is always my advice, also.
Seems like you were too late, however.
I hope the horror stories we hear pretty often do not happen.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Quitting church
December 20, 2016 at 7:00 am
Yea I can see she already had the conversation.
Call me overly cautious but I have heard too many horror stories of kids at 16 or 17 being kicked out of their home for coming out to their parents as atheist.
Glad everything went as planned!
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
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RE: Quitting church
December 20, 2016 at 7:05 am
Proud of you Erica. So glad you did this.
 to freedom and to AF.
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RE: Quitting church
December 21, 2016 at 4:47 pm
(December 19, 2016 at 9:57 am)SteveII Wrote: (December 18, 2016 at 1:48 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote: But your advice wasn't to get all the information though, it was to listen to your unevidenced assertions and that alone. You've no interest in the truth, you've no interest in the complete information and you've no interest in openness, because all those things show the lie of your religious beliefs.
My advice was predicated on the assumption that Erica had encountered arguments that illustrated to her that her parents were wrong. I doubted a 17 year old is aware there is 2000 years of philosophical thought/justification (in tens of thousands of books) that backs up the beliefs of her parents. I also doubt that she realized there are no new arguments against Christianity--so the idea that we have somehow discovered "truth" lately is completely false.
Regarding seeking truth, there would be no way to evaluate the truth claims of Christianity without understanding the doctrines thoroughly (including answering the age-old objections to them).
It is your opinion that my religious beliefs are a lie. You could not possibly know that.
Hahahahaha omg you amuse me. Books that back up the Christian faith? You do know a lot of stupid people write books right? You do know that the whole idea of following an old book *cough*thebible*cough* just because it is old is just silly and naïve.
“What screws us up the most in life is the picture in our head of what it's supposed to be.”
Also if your signature makes my scrolling mess up "you're tacky and I hate you."
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RE: Quitting church
December 21, 2016 at 5:40 pm
(December 21, 2016 at 4:47 pm)mlmooney89 Wrote: (December 19, 2016 at 9:57 am)SteveII Wrote: My advice was predicated on the assumption that Erica had encountered arguments that illustrated to her that her parents were wrong. I doubted a 17 year old is aware there is 2000 years of philosophical thought/justification (in tens of thousands of books) that backs up the beliefs of her parents. I also doubt that she realized there are no new arguments against Christianity--so the idea that we have somehow discovered "truth" lately is completely false.
Regarding seeking truth, there would be no way to evaluate the truth claims of Christianity without understanding the doctrines thoroughly (including answering the age-old objections to them).
It is your opinion that my religious beliefs are a lie. You could not possibly know that.
Hahahahaha omg you amuse me. Books that back up the Christian faith? You do know a lot of stupid people write books right? You do know that the whole idea of following an old book *cough*thebible*cough* just because it is old is just silly and naïve.
Glad I could brighten your day. 
I do know a lot of stupid people write books. Smart people write stupid books as well.
Do you really think that people follow the Bible 'just because it is old' or because of the content? I started a thread awhile back where I articulated why I thought people became Christians (and, by extension, follow the Bible): http://atheistforums.org/thread-42941.html
Quote:It has come up in another thread that natural theology (philosophical arguments) are not the reason once becomes a Christian. Natural theology should be properly understood as support for the direct revelation and personal revelation from God (the Bible and personal relationship respectively)
I believe, especially for an adult not raised in a Christian home, it is the appeal of Jesus as a person coupled with his teachings that draws people. Why do these things resonate with a large number of people?
It is obvious that we are somehow wired to believe in God/higher power/supernatural/purpose/destiny etc. Of course you will say this is a product of our evolution. There are several theories centered around the adaptive values of religion (social solidarity for one). However, these theories presuppose naturalism. So the result of this reasoning is that if God did exist or did not exist, we would still be wired to believe God exists.
I think another reason this resonates with people is Jesus' main message that forgiveness, personal peace, a relationship with God, and eteral life is possible.
a. there are a lot of people, who have had tough experiences that find the forgiveness and internal peace very appealing.
b. when you meet someone who has been a Christian a long time and exemplifies Jesus' teachings and shares how God has been a constant comfort and support to them in their daily lives, that is very appealing as well.
c. eternal life, how can you beat that? This component also helps you make sense/cope of the shortness of life, tragedies, and pain endured while we are here.
Another appealing quality of Christianity is having the question of purpose and place in the universe answered.
a. with atheism, at best, you are a happy accident with no overall purpose that will very shortly die and cease to exist.
b. contrast that with the purpose of man is to "Glorify God and enjoy him forever". We were created for a reason and daily life has purpose and you really want others to know what you have found.
In addition, Jesus modeled his teachings of love, compassion, and forgiveness for your fellow man and in doing so set an example that, if aspired to, would result in a very fulfilling life. Perhaps you are not old enough, but once you contemplate the brevity of life, finding fulfillment becames important.
While I know the one-liners will start flying in a moment, please contemplate the point I made at the beginning: It is not the KCA, or where did life come from, or arguments about origins of morality that converts people to Christianity, it is Jesus and his message that does that and I thought it important to make that clear.
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