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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 10:50 am
I'm not sure what it is about this that is so hard to understand. Not sure what else to say without repeating myself.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 10:53 am
(December 15, 2016 at 10:31 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (December 15, 2016 at 10:27 am)pool the great Wrote: Say, the Lord has seen me eat ice-cream tomorrow noon at around 12. Do I have the ability to eat a chicken roll instead or will I have to strictly stick with the ice-cream?
What? Not sure if this is a serious question. Obviously you can choose to eat whatever you want. The point is He already knows what you will choose because he's already seen it happen. bold mine
Then that is not free will. It is the illusion you are experiencing of free will. It only feels like you are making choices.
god has already seen your response to this post. It only feels like you are creating it on your own. To do anything other would unmake an omniscient god. According to the religious, that can't happen.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 10:53 am
(This post was last modified: December 15, 2016 at 10:55 am by robvalue.)
It's the fact that it's impossible. It's only the non-existence of the test subject which is stopping this from being evident.
All my choices were made for me at the inception of our reality, way before I was even born, if such precognition is possible. Made precisely by the creator, since he could have designed it so I make whatever choices he wants.
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 10:54 am
I'm sorry. I fail to see how Him having already seen what I choose to do = Him controlling what I do.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 11:02 am
(This post was last modified: December 15, 2016 at 11:08 am by robvalue.)
He controls it because he set inevitable events in motion. We are puppets. We play out his plan. They can't be any different to how he instantly knows they will be. And he knew they would be, when he set it in motion.
Since he could have made any plan at all, every action I take has been specifically chosen in advance.
Unless he used some sort of random number generator in order to surprise himself. But then he'd presumably know the outcome of that too, even though that's another contradiction.
Simple question: can I choose differently to what God knows I will ultimately choose, in any given situation? If he knows it, in advance, then it's a constant. It's one choice, one outcome. It can't vary as things go along, or else he didn't really know the final outcome in the first place.
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 11:09 am
(December 15, 2016 at 10:54 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm sorry. I fail to see how Him having already seen what I choose to do = Him controlling what I do.
I don't think that's the case CL. If he can see the future then our future is predetermined (as demonstrated with my previous example)..
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 11:12 am
(This post was last modified: December 15, 2016 at 11:13 am by robvalue.)
I think CL sees the future as being somehow fluid.
But it doesn't matter how many times the possible future changes, there's only one thing that can ultimately happen. And if God knows what that is, then no one can choose for anything different to happen.
If they can, then he didn't know it.
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 11:15 am
(December 15, 2016 at 11:12 am)robvalue Wrote: there's only one thing that can ultimately happen. And if God knows what that is, then no one can choose for anything different to happen.
No, that is not what I am saying.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 11:19 am
(December 15, 2016 at 6:18 am)RozKek Wrote: (December 14, 2016 at 11:48 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I definitely wouldn't call it "predetermined fate." We believe God exists in a dimension outside of time and so he already knows all the choices we will make with our free will. But yeah, him knowing what choices we will make before we make them, doesn't make them any less our own choices.
Anyway, hopefully someone else will come in here and also answer in their own words. I hate it when I'm the only one who answers lol.
Even this isn't coherent, it's the exact same situation except that god is assumed to be in another dimension which in no way adds value to the argument. I will simplify this.
Please do not go off track with your answer:
God is all powerful, he can see the future. He sees that you're going to go to hell. Can you go to heaven?
(December 15, 2016 at 10:50 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm not sure what it is about this that is so hard to understand. Not sure what else to say without repeating myself.
Can you answer the question I asked earlier?
God is all powerful, he can see the future. He sees that you're going to go to hell. Can you go to heaven?
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 11:24 am
(This post was last modified: December 15, 2016 at 11:26 am by ErGingerbreadMandude.)
(December 15, 2016 at 11:15 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (December 15, 2016 at 11:12 am)robvalue Wrote: there's only one thing that can ultimately happen. And if God knows what that is, then no one can choose for anything different to happen.
No, that is not what I am saying.
I think I know exactly what you mean. You mean to say God exist as an outside, independent viewer that sees everything before and ahead of time.
Well consider this scenario:
* God tells me I'll have steak for breakfast.
* I have eggs for breakfast.
There are three explanations:
1) God already knew I will have eggs. However in this case it would imply God lied to me, which isn't possible since he is exempt from sin.
2) God didn't know what would happen. This would imply God is not aware of everything, which again contradicts the property of God.
3) God knew what would happen but we exercised our free will and did what we wanted regardless, which deny the notion of a predetermined fate and takes us back to scenario 2.
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