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Current time: 18th January 2017, 16:09

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Islam is hostile, but there is also lots of bias from muslims and bigotry aswell
#1
Islam is hostile, but there is also lots of bias from muslims and bigotry aswell
Well first of all. It is a hostile religion i will say that.

Basically here is a verse that says in the next last chapter in a historical view of revelation. I think the last chapter was 110 but its nothing much of interest in it from what i know
In either case most are familiar with this verse

Surah 9:29
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

The question is what does it mean to fight? Well i am sure there are different methods. From my memory of reading Sahih al-bukhari they glorify martyrdom constantly. There is an entire book on that. I think Book 56 Jihad and Book 64 Military expeditions. Or maybe the name title was the opposite, been awhile since i read those.

In either case. The question is does this mean all muslims now just have to go on a jihad course. While holy wars is a part of the religion its not everything. I'll explain with these verse in terms of people in general aka unbelievers.

Surah 9:7
How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

Read more further from here if you wish its not so friendly that i can tell

Well this is the reason why for example your muslim friend wont kill you, although some may interpret this just in context of these polytheists but if thats the case then you can do that to every surah in that chapter in either case it can be used as a justisification to be upright towards non muslims from what i get.

Bias information like for example David Wood who i partly agree with but is so bias on other stuff to justify his belief is incredibly dishonest, although the same could be said about islamic apologetics too or fundamentalists on the internet. Either case it is yes a hostile religion but basically to translate, if you act nicely towards your friend then no problem we are cool. But its deffinetely a hostile religion, the problem is the distorted view is more or less that they are robots who cant think by some people. I mean fundamentalists may be crazy though but sometimes bigotry seems to get the best in people instead of reasons.

While i certainly think we can do better than religious fundamentalism in the future in terms of values. But that is just me.
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#2
RE: Islam is hostile, but there is also lots of bias from muslims and bigotry aswell
First off, you seem like a very intelligent and well spoken individual. Because of that, I believe that we could have a respectful debate, as in some regard I disagree with your statement that violence and brutality are not completely condoned by Islam and the life of Muhammad.

Islamic State, or ISIS, has been quoted numerous times saying they will kill all the nonbelievers of Allah, and although some apologists will argue otherwise, Islam approves of their actions. And in reference to being friends with "people of the book", that is also discouraged.

Basically, I will attempt to refute your argument, citing an Authentic Hadith as well as the Qu'ran, these of which will be quoted via links at the end of this post. The citing of these links adheres to the 30/30 rule, as I am validating an argument.

A Hadith narrated by ibn 'Umar, from the Sahih al-Bukhari states "Allah's messenger said: 'I have been been ordered by Allah to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped by Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's messenger'." This verse is stating how all people, even innocent civilians whom you may know, if they don't believe in Allah must be killed. This is also condoned by the "perfect, merciful prophet."

Non-believers were always seen as problems in Islam. Qu'ran chapter 8, verse 12 states "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes." This is an obvious call to kill nonbelievers, no matter who they are.

I will cite one more source. A hadith narrated by 'Umar al-Khattab talks about how even relatives can be killed if they cite disbelief or doubt in Allah.


So I pose this question to you. Why are there contradictions in the handling of disbelievers and/or relatives/friends.

If you wish to debate, please message me. We could set it up formally.

Sources
https://www.sunnah.com/muslim/32/69
https://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/2/18
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/...a8.html#12
Paul was a misogynist: A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 1st Timothy 2:11-13
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#3
RE: Islam is hostile, but there is also lots of bias from muslims and bigotry aswell
I really warn people not to fall for the trap of singling out 1 religion. The state of the middle east certain ly within sects groups and theocracies can be traced to the words in the Koran and Hadiths as such. But Islam still regardless did not invent human cruelty no does it own a patent on it.

Muslims in the east kill more of each other's different sects than they do non Muslims or westerners.

I still refuse as a human being, to use blanket assumptions of guilt by proxy of origin or religion, to problem solve. It is one thing to attack bad ideas and go after violent individuals or sects, but no, I will not fall for the trap of lump guilt. The all or nothing mentality, the gang mentality that creates their closed societies and fear of the other is nothing we in the west should aspire to reduce ourselves to.

And having been online not just talking to the Muslims we've had here, but on other social media and even in the news. It really is a bullshit myth that there are no Muslims speaking out against the violence done in the name of their religion. IT IS THERE. You ignoring it, or it not getting reported enough, does not change that.

I have talked to people whom live in Iran online, and Saudi Arabia and those whom have fled. Mostly Ex Muslims but even those still in it. I do not say this in defense of Islam or the Koran itself, but in defense of treating your fellow human being as an individual first. Until an individual gives me a reason to fear them, I am not going to assume their guilt.

There is plenty of violence that can be justified in Christian and Jewish writings as well and all three stem from the same God of Abraham.

I think it is far more important to argue the state of theocracies in the middle east and the words in the Koran itself and unwise to use blanket assumptions of guilt of individuals as a tactic.
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#4
RE: Islam is hostile, but there is also lots of bias from muslims and bigotry aswell
Bill Maher once commented: "We have religious leaders in the west, too.  We just don't listen to them."

Seems to me that muslims should begin there.  Whenever some imam tells someone to strap on a suicide vest the proper reply should be "you go first."



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#5
RE: Islam is hostile, but there is also lots of bias from muslims and bigotry aswell
That was a good point. I recognize my eagerness was my downfall in that case.

Wonderfully put.
Paul was a misogynist: A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 1st Timothy 2:11-13
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#6
RE: Islam is hostile, but there is also lots of bias from muslims and bigotry aswell
(31st December 2016, 17:38)camlov2019 Wrote: That was a good point. I recognize my eagerness was my downfall in that case.

Wonderfully put.

Just like with pretty much any holy book, you can find a contradictory passage for any stance you wish to take on your personal subjective interpretation of something that is clearly not factual. So it's down to your natural predisposition and/or your type of indoctrination that determines which approach you take to it. The entire thing is a pathetic exercise in futility but both the sides that advocate peace and those that advocate genocide are 100% correct because that is easily justifiable depending on what passage you point to and which ones you choose to ignore or interpret differently. But because the book contradicts itself, putting those into practice is foolhardy without a rational justification. So neither approach is actually moral because they're abdicating their responsibility to evolve their own moral code without respect to a source that paradoxically is unquestionable and yet relies entirely upon non-objective interpretation.
Raj: They’re going to sell out!
Howard: What are we going to do?
Sheldon: All right, this goes against everything I stand for but desperate times call for desperate measures. Lord, this is Sheldon Cooper. You’re good friends with my mom. I know I’ve spent my life denying that you exist…
Howard: Got ‘em!
Sheldon: And I will continue to do so! - The Big Bang Theory
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