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Dylann Roof sentenced to death
RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 1:36 pm)Rhythm Wrote:
(January 13, 2017 at 8:22 am)A Theist Wrote: Out of curiosity, if you were called upon to plead for the lives of the likes of Ted Bundy, Dylan Roof, Timothy McVeigh, John Wayne Gacy, etc...at their trials, what evidence would you give, or what would you say to convince a courtroom that their lives should be spared?
Why would I plead for their lives at all?  My opposition to the death penalty has nothing to do with wishing to see their lives spared.  
(January 13, 2017 at 10:39 am)Shell B Wrote: Well then, that's obviously not the type of evidence I was talking about, which I made perfectly clear in another post. Also, you're talking about Texas. They need more reform than the average bear.
I understand that, but you might be overestimating our justice system if you think that any other place can guarantee any greater quality of evidence, or that it couldn't happen anywhere (ofc, it already has happened elsewhere, all over elsewhere), that you....or me, or anyone else - even given the "right" evidence...couldn't get the conviction wrong.    

Quote:Yeah, this is the part where you think that it bothers me to turn the state into executioners. It doesn't. They've been executioners since the dawn of our country. There have always been people that society is better off without. I'd rather see execution be rare and extremely well-controlled than argue for the life of people like Roof.
IDK, I was asking.  If it doesn't bother you it doesn't bother you.  I also think they've been executioners since the dawn of our country.  That doesn't mean they have to be.  We make that decision anew every single time.  There's no need to argue for people like roof to oppose the death penalty.  Making it about him is to trivialize rather than address the issue, imo.

Thank you Rhythm, that last line says what I was trying to argue. Nobody is demanding you have sympathy for Roof or Bundy or like them, the picture is long term not one case. You can't make it about them, that is the trap we fall for every single time a mass shooter or mass murderer gets caught. It creates tunnel vision and is not a long term prevention issue or tax payer issue. 

Crime is a long term social issue, prevention in reducing that is how we raise kids, the ability to see warning signs, economic stability, understanding human behaviors both good and bad, and investment in mental health care. Right now our climate is far too full of a revenge mentality. It isn't enough to simply lock them up, or use a court to punish people.
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RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 12:31 pm)Brian37 Wrote: [quote='Shell B' pid='1486543' dateline='1484324039']
I don't see it as revenge. You can't get revenge for those kinds of things. What would you do? You can't kill a bunch of people the killer cares about. Most of the time, there are no such people. I see it as taking out the trash. Again, I'm only talking about situations where there is no doubt and the crimes are incredibly heinous. (Don't bother denying the fact that such cases exist. If we thought it was impossible to have no doubt of a person's guilt, we couldn't put anyone in jail ever.)

Quote:View it as you wish, but it still does nothing long term but satisfy your emotions. Just from a taxpayer standpoint it is not cost effective, nor is it a deterrent. 

The same could be said of your stance.

Quote:And again, this isn't about one case, beyond a reasonable doubt I have no problem with.

Actually, these rare few cases are exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not arguing that the state only executes in those cases. I'm not arguing there should be no reform. Shit, I'm not even arguing that they should be executed. We actually agree. You've said exactly how I feel. In those cases, beyond any doubt, reasonable or otherwise, I have no problem with execution. That is the sum total of my position.


Quote:But our reality is a long term climate, not simply about one case. It is much more humane long term to reverse a wrongful conviction than to risk a mob rule climate.

None of these things are what I'm debating about. Therefore, I'll save us both time by ending my response here.

(January 13, 2017 at 1:36 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I understand that, but you might be overestimating our justice system if you think that any other place can guarantee any greater quality of evidence, or that it couldn't happen anywhere (ofc, it already has happened elsewhere, all over elsewhere), that you....or me, or anyone else - even given the "right" evidence...couldn't get the conviction wrong.

I'm not overestimating anything. I'm presenting what I think would be ideal situations for the use of the death penalty. We mostly agree. The system fucks up. When and where there is a time when there is absolutely no question about a person's guilt, I'm perfectly fine with the state offing a guy or gal. It's that simple.    

Quote:There's no need to argue for people like roof to oppose the death penalty.  Making it about him is to trivialize rather than address the issue, imo.

This is a thread about Roof.
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RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 1:53 pm)Shell B Wrote:
(January 13, 2017 at 12:31 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(January 13, 2017 at 12:13 pm)Shell B Wrote: I don't see it as revenge. You can't get revenge for those kinds of things. What would you do? You can't kill a bunch of people the killer cares about. Most of the time, there are no such people. I see it as taking out the trash. Again, I'm only talking about situations where there is no doubt and the crimes are incredibly heinous. (Don't bother denying the fact that such cases exist. If we thought it was impossible to have no doubt of a person's guilt, we couldn't put anyone in jail ever.)

Quote:View it as you wish, but it still does nothing long term but satisfy your emotions. Just from a taxpayer standpoint it is not cost effective, nor is it a deterrent. 

The same could be said of your stance.

Quote:And again, this isn't about one case, beyond a reasonable doubt I have no problem with.

Actually, these rare few cases are exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not arguing that the state only executes in those cases. I'm not arguing there should be no reform. Shit, I'm not even arguing that they should be executed. We actually agree. You've said exactly how I feel. In those cases, beyond any doubt, reasonable or otherwise, I have no problem with execution. That is the sum total of my position.


Quote:But our reality is a long term climate, not simply about one case. It is much more humane long term to reverse a wrongful conviction than to risk a mob rule climate.

None of these things are what I'm debating about. Therefore, I'll save us both time by ending my response here.

(January 13, 2017 at 1:36 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I understand that, but you might be overestimating our justice system if you think that any other place can guarantee any greater quality of evidence, or that it couldn't happen anywhere (ofc, it already has happened elsewhere, all over elsewhere), that you....or me, or anyone else - even given the "right" evidence...couldn't get the conviction wrong.

I'm not overestimating anything. I'm presenting what I think would be ideal situations for the use of the death penalty. We mostly agree. The system fucks up. When and where there is a time when there is absolutely no question about a person's guilt, I'm perfectly fine with the state offing a guy or gal. It's that simple.    

Quote:There's no need to argue for people like roof to oppose the death penalty.  Making it about him is to trivialize rather than address the issue, imo.

This is a thread about Roof.
I think we are going in circles here. Yes this thread IS about Roof, nobody is disputing that.
I am talking about how getting stuck on one sample in a history of countless cases shapes public attitudes. I wish it were as simple as you'd like to see it, it would be easier to agree with you. But reality outside this thread is about a long term climate and law making and potential attitudes that can become destructive over long periods.
You cannot disconnect Roof as a mass murderer from a state or federal law that someone who only kills one person, the only difference with him is the amount of charges and his fame. Again, not everyone is famous like him, and not everyone has money to defend themselves like say OJ or Ronny Spector or even the rich kid who drove drunk, killed 4 people and ran off to Mexico. It isn't about one person or one case. In a perfect utopia you'd be making a much better case, but reality isn't a utopia. 
We are absolutely with you in your reaction to him as an individual, but where we disagree is how to handle him.
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RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 1:53 pm)Shell B Wrote: I'm not overestimating anything. I'm presenting what I think would be ideal situations for the use of the death penalty. We mostly agree. The system fucks up. When and where there is a time when there is absolutely no question about a person's guilt, I'm perfectly fine with the state offing a guy or gal. It's that simple.    
I like to think that we do mostly agree.  I don't know that there's ever a point where we can be 100% (we're not required to be anyway), and even in such a case I'm still not okay with the state offing the guy or gal...but I have objections to it other than the guilt of any specific individual.  

Quote:This is a thread about Roof.
It seems to have evolved since then, like threads usually do, lol. The case of one person is an insufficient basis around which to form or justify a system which will -and must by law be- applied to many others. Being fine with it, in roofs case, won;t change how an equal application of that system creates terrible, terrible problems.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 2:15 pm)Rhythm Wrote:
(January 13, 2017 at 1:53 pm)Shell B Wrote: I'm not overestimating anything. I'm presenting what I think would be ideal situations for the use of the death penalty. We mostly agree. The system fucks up. When and where there is a time when there is absolutely no question about a person's guilt, I'm perfectly fine with the state offing a guy or gal. It's that simple.    
I like to think that we do mostly agree.  I don't know that there's ever a point where we can be 100% (we're not required to be anyway), and even in such a case I'm still not okay with the state offing the guy or gal...but I have objections to it other than the guilt of any specific individual.  

Quote:This is a thread about Roof.
It seems to have evolved since then, like threads usually do, lol.  The case of one person is an insufficient basis around which to form or justify a system which will -and must by law be- applied to many others.

Honestly, I can totally see why people are against the death penalty 100%. I'm almost entirely with them.

As for your second point, sure, it has evolved, but Roof is still the crux of the argument, the reason we're talking about the death penalty. I have made clear a jillion times that, no matter what everyone else is talking about, I'm specifically talking about people like Roof. I also don't see how how a law, which I haven't advocated or proposed, specifically designed to apply to the most heinous of killers with the most specific needs for evidence would have to apply to many others. You could easily write a law that only obtained to certain people. The only problem is A. People who love the death penalty and B. People who hate it. If you wrote it perfectly, one or the other side would just shit all over it.
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RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 2:23 pm)Shell B Wrote: Honestly, I can totally see why people are against the death penalty 100%. I'm almost entirely with them.

As for your second point, sure, it has evolved, but Roof is still the crux of the argument, the reason we're talking about the death penalty. I have made clear a jillion times that, no matter what everyone else is talking about, I'm specifically talking about people like Roof. I also don't see how how a law, which I haven't advocated or proposed, specifically designed to apply to the most heinous of killers with the most specific needs for evidence would have to apply to many others.
Because many others, rightfully or wrongfully, have found themselves accused of crimes for which capital punishment is an option.  This particular punishment affects a large number of people and communities that -haven't- been accused of -any- crime, additionally (ironically, it impoverishes the people the state demands by force of law and threat of imprisonment, to both prosecute and carry out the sentence).  It also has tremendous implications regarding peoples position of the proper level of power and authority of the state..what they can and cannot (or should and should not) do.  Point is, it's a hell of alot bigger than roof or anyone else who's ever been executed by the state individually, or even all people who have ever been executed by the state collectively.

Quote:You could easily write a law that only obtained to certain people. The only problem is A. People who love the death penalty and B. People who hate it. If you wrote it perfectly, one or the other side would just shit all over it.
You could easily write that law, but it gives a lawyer the most clearcut appeal imaginable.  It's not equal justice.  This one works even if your boy really is 100% guilty, lol. Now we're talking about writing perfect laws, though....so, I wouldn't know what to say about that.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
The DP is dished out rather randomly as it seems. James Holmes, for example, just got 12 consecutive life setences, after killing 24. He fits the bill of Roof rather nicely. More than any serial killer who fall into an entirely different category of offenders. But even serial offenders get away with life if they're lucky enough to get a deal. Dennis Raider got away with his life after making a deal. Far as I know, this wasn't even on the table for Roof.
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RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
Roof barely scratches the surface of the unequal application of law present in capital cases.  He's a bit of an outlier, actually.....we usually give young white kids a break, no matter what it is they've done.   Wink
(if you ask me, where he fucked up, was hitting a church, that's what did him in..if he'd hit em in a fuckin mcdonalds he might have gotten off easier - which isn't saying anything especially brilliant about our system either)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 2:28 pm)Rhythm Wrote:
(January 13, 2017 at 2:23 pm)Shell B Wrote: Honestly, I can totally see why people are against the death penalty 100%. I'm almost entirely with them.

As for your second point, sure, it has evolved, but Roof is still the crux of the argument, the reason we're talking about the death penalty. I have made clear a jillion times that, no matter what everyone else is talking about, I'm specifically talking about people like Roof. I also don't see how how a law, which I haven't advocated or proposed, specifically designed to apply to the most heinous of killers with the most specific needs for evidence would have to apply to many others.
Because many others, rightfully or wrongfully, have found themselves accused of crimes for which capital punishment is an option.  This particular punishment affects a large number of people and communities that -haven't- been accused of -any- crime, additionally (ironically, it impoverishes the people the state demands by force of law and threat of imprisonment, to both prosecute and carry out the sentence).  It also has tremendous implications regarding peoples position of the proper level of power and authority of the state..what they can and cannot (or should and should not) do.  Point is, it's a hell of alot bigger than roof or anyone else who's ever been executed by the state individually, or even all people who have ever been executed by the state collectively.  

Quote:You could easily write a law that only obtained to certain people. The only problem is A. People who love the death penalty and B. People who hate it. If you wrote it perfectly, one or the other side would just shit all over it.
You could easily write that law, but it gives a lawyer the most clearcut appeal imaginable.  It's not equal justice.  This one works even if your boy really is 100% guilty, lol.  Now we're talking about writing perfect laws, though....so, I wouldn't know what to say about that.

There is no such thing as a "perfect law" because just like the Constitution itself, it is open to interpretation. The use of the tool, which laws are are as only as good as the people who write them and use them, so you can only write laws and try to improve or remove. But since we are talking about the ultimate punishment, the death penalty, I know too much of history and even personally even outside mass muder or murder itself, how our imperfect system already hurts the disadvantaged. I'd rather err on not having it to avoid hurting someone innocent long term.  At least with life in prison, you have the chance to let someone out if it is proven after the conviction they did not do it.
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RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 12:13 pm)Shell B Wrote: (Don't bother denying the fact that such cases exist. If we thought it was impossible to have no doubt of a person's guilt, we couldn't put anyone in jail ever.)

The standard is beyond a reasonable doubt here in America, not airtight, as you seem to imply here.

We can and do convict people on less-than-perfect evidence, and occasionally (surprise!) those convictions turn out to be wrong.

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