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Dylann Roof sentenced to death
RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 2:28 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Because many others, rightfully or wrongfully, have found themselves accused of crimes for which capital punishment is an option.  This particular punishment affects a large number of people and communities that -haven't- been accused of -any- crime, additionally (ironically, it impoverishes the people the state demands by force of law and threat of imprisonment, to both prosecute and carry out the sentence).  It also has tremendous implications regarding peoples position of the proper level of power and authority of the state..what they can and cannot (or should and should not) do.  Point is, it's a hell of alot bigger than roof or anyone else who's ever been executed by the state individually, or even all people who have ever been executed by the state collectively.  

The broader, current application of the death penalty certain is bigger than Roof, but I've never argued that it's currently perfect or even okay. My argument is not bigger than Roof and men like him. You're arguing against a puff of smoke you're blowing.

Quote:You could easily write that law, but it gives a lawyer the most clearcut appeal imaginable.

Don't you want people to be able to appeal? I'm only talking about the sentence, not the conviction.

Quote:Now we're talking about writing perfect laws, though....so, I wouldn't know what to say about that.

I wasn't saying there are perfect laws. I was saying, even if someone wrote a perfect law, either the side that wants to kill everyone who winds up in jail would be pissed because they couldn't kill enough people and the nobody dies crowd would be pissed because still too many people get executed. You can't fix the problem until people are willing to compromise to some degree, which they will never be. Therefore, I will continue to not give a shit or even say boo when guys like Roof get executed and I will continue to give extra shits for the wrongfully convicted.
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RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 3:18 pm)Shell B Wrote: The broader, current application of the death penalty certain is bigger than Roof, but I've never argued that it's currently perfect or even okay. My argument is not bigger than Roof and men like him. You're arguing against a puff of smoke you're blowing.
Pretty sure I;m arguing against the death penalty.  / shrugs   Rolleyes

Quote:Don't you want people to be able to appeal? I'm only talking about the sentence, not the conviction.
Ideally, if we're talking about writing decent laws, leaving them wide open to appeals that would let those hypothetically 100% guilty folks free are to be avoided.  

Quote:I wasn't saying there are perfect laws. I was saying, even if someone wrote a perfect law, either the side that wants to kill everyone who winds up in jail would be pissed because they couldn't kill enough people and the nobody dies crowd would be pissed because still too many people get executed. You can't fix the problem until people are willing to compromise to some degree, which they will never be. Therefore, I will continue to not give a shit or even say boo when guys like Roof get executed and I will continue to give extra shits for the wrongfully convicted.
We're in the same boat on that last bit, like I said, I don't give a shit about roof. The majority of my objection to the dp has nothing to do with those rightfully or wrongly executed, though. Who they are, their character, whether I give a shit about them, the nature of their crimes, none of that. Personally, I'm not a fan of compromise for the sake of compromise, certainly not when it comes to the state killing anyone, for any reason.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 3:13 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(January 13, 2017 at 12:13 pm)Shell B Wrote: (Don't bother denying the fact that such cases exist. If we thought it was impossible to have no doubt of a person's guilt, we couldn't put anyone in jail ever.)

The standard is beyond a reasonable doubt here in America, not airtight, as you seem to imply here.

We can and do convict people on less-than-perfect evidence, and occasionally (surprise!) those convictions turn out to be wrong.

Why is no one reading my posts and only responding to snippets of one or the other?

I did not ever say that our system only hands out the death penalty in airtight cases. I didn't imply it. Not even a little.

Yes, I know we convict people on less than perfect evidence. I never said or implied otherwise.

Let me make this clearer for you folk. I'm talking about hypothetical situations that I feel would make the death penalty okay (it's a few pages back, you might have missed it). You not thinking they exist or thinking the government screws up too much is not at all relevant to what I'm saying. I'm not saying the government does the death penalty real good. I'm not saying the government does the death penalty okay. I'm not saying it's okay to trade innocent lives for the deaths of a few monsters. None of that has happened, so debate it with someone who actually thinks that. Otherwise, I have to wade through responses that literally have nothing to do with my argument.

(January 13, 2017 at 3:23 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Pretty sure I;m arguing against the death penalty.  / shrugs   Rolleyes

Yes, you're arguing against the death penalty in its current state. I haven't argued for it, so this is a time suck.

Quote:Ideally, if we're talking about writing decent laws, leaving them wide open to appeals that would let those hypothetically 100% guilty folks free are to be avoided.

It wouldn't leave them free. Again, talking about criteria for the sentence, not the crime. These people would still be in jail.  

Quote:We're in the same boat on that last bit, but the majority of my objection to the dp has nothing to do with those rightfully or wrongly executed.

It must not be you who keeps bringing up the idea that the dp is bad because innocent people die because of it.
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RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 3:23 pm)Shell B Wrote: Yes, you're arguing against the death penalty in its current state. I haven't argued for it, so this is a time suck.
In any state shell..in any state.  

Quote:It wouldn't leave them free. Again, talking about criteria for the sentence, not the crime. These people would still be in jail.  
Not if they have an easy constitutional case to mount, at least not for long, regardless of their guilt.  I'd like to keep them in prison too...in fact, I think the problem is pretty much solved so long as we keep them in prison.......

Quote:It must not be you who keeps bringing up the idea that the dp is bad because innocent people die because of it.
That's one reason of many.  If that doesn't compel, we not nearly out of reasons..we've hardly started. I generally place emphasis what I think might appeal to the other the strongest, not necessarily what I find the most compelling. You strike me as the kind of person who prefers not to countenance innocents executed, the kind of person who gives those extra shits for them. A Theist otoh, for example...I'd just remind him that it costs him extra money.

Wink
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 3:23 pm)Shell B Wrote:
(January 13, 2017 at 3:13 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: The standard is beyond a reasonable doubt here in America, not airtight, as you seem to imply here.

We can and do convict people on less-than-perfect evidence, and occasionally (surprise!) those convictions turn out to be wrong.

Why is no one reading my posts and only responding to snippets of one or the other?

Because the particular snippet I singled out was what I wanted to reply to. I didn't want to reply to every point you've raised, and I'm not going to.

(January 13, 2017 at 3:23 pm)Shell B Wrote: I did not ever say that our system only hands out the death penalty in airtight cases. I didn't imply it. Not even a little.

Nor did I say you did. I was correcting the quote I answered, and nothing more. Here's what you wrote: "If we thought it was impossible to have no doubt of a person's guilt, we couldn't put anyone in jail ever." The insinuation is that we have to accept imperfection in the process of administering justice -- and I agree with that. Our system recognizes it in using the term beyond a reasonable doubt. We clearly have the possibility of doubting a conviction while still meting it out; this is why the qualifier "reasonable" s used, this is why we have appellate courts, and so on. Those are a testament to this imperfection ... even as we continue to jail people.

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RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 3:23 pm)Rhythm Wrote:
(January 13, 2017 at 3:18 pm)Shell B Wrote: The broader, current application of the death penalty certain is bigger than Roof, but I've never argued that it's currently perfect or even okay. My argument is not bigger than Roof and men like him. You're arguing against a puff of smoke you're blowing.
Pretty sure I;m arguing against the death penalty.  / shrugs   Rolleyes

Quote:Don't you want people to be able to appeal? I'm only talking about the sentence, not the conviction.
Ideally, if we're talking about writing decent laws, leaving them wide open to appeals that would let those hypothetically 100% guilty folks free are to be avoided.  

Quote:I wasn't saying there are perfect laws. I was saying, even if someone wrote a perfect law, either the side that wants to kill everyone who winds up in jail would be pissed because they couldn't kill enough people and the nobody dies crowd would be pissed because still too many people get executed. You can't fix the problem until people are willing to compromise to some degree, which they will never be. Therefore, I will continue to not give a shit or even say boo when guys like Roof get executed and I will continue to give extra shits for the wrongfully convicted.
We're in the same boat on that last bit, like I said, I don't give a shit about roof.  The majority of my objection to the dp has nothing to do with those rightfully or wrongly executed, though.  Who they are, their character, whether I give a shit about them, the nature of their crimes, none of that.  Personally, I'm not a fan of compromise for the sake of compromise, certainly not when it comes to the state killing anyone, for any reason.

I am not for the death penalty for moral reasons, having more to do with selfish reasons as well. When you know what it is like to have a mob hate you knowing you didn't do it, it is a very bad place to be in. My rejecting it is more selfish but also long term, and in our age of quick satisfaction and quick judgment media, the death penalty bleeds into anyone accused of murder. Again, my being accused of throwing that rock doesn't come close to being accused of murder, so there has to be a mindset of fact finding in cases of crime, not emotional kneejerk reaction in real crime, and especially murder cases. 

The death penalty is also used in Iran and Saudi Arabia. So that says to me all I need to know about human evolution and that if it can happen there based on far less safety nets and can be based on revenge and religion, I don't want to see a long term climate where we end up back in the dark ages here, back in the days of witch hunts, and lynchings. Not just for others accused, but what I would want for myself if I was falsely accused.
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RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 3:28 pm)Rhythm Wrote: In any state shell..in any state.  

Sure, but you keep bringing up its current state, which we both already have a problem with, so we can just leave it out.

Quote:Not if they have an easy constitutional case to mount, at least not for long, regardless of their guilt.  I'd like to keep them in prison too...in fact, I think the problem is pretty much solved so long as we keep them in prison.......

Yeah, see this is more about me just not giving a shit than trying to solve a problem. The way I see it, the people who are hungry for their brand of justice can go ahead and kill these guys, as long as they're extra careful about not killing anyone else. Again, not saying that's what's happening or that it's necessarily possible in this country. Just that those are my criteria for being just plain blasé about it.

(January 13, 2017 at 3:37 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Because the particular snippet I singled out was what I wanted to reply to.  I didn't want to reply to every point you've raised, and I'm not going to.

I wouldn't want you to, either. Still, it was in the context of a greater point that you either skipped over or ignored, so . . .

(January 13, 2017 at 3:23 pm)Shell B Wrote: Nor did I say you did. I was correcting the quote I answered, and nothing more. Here's what you wrote: "If we thought it was impossible to have no doubt of a person's guilt, we couldn't put anyone in jail ever." The insinuation is that we have to accept imperfection in the process of administering justice -- and I agree with that. Our system recognizes it in using the term beyond a reasonable doubt. We clearly have the possibility of doubting a conviction while still meting it out; this is why the qualifier "reasonable" s used, this is why we have appellate courts, and so on. Those are a testament to this imperfection ... even as we continue to jail people.

You weren't correcting anything. You categorically stated that I implied the law goes by airtight evidence, which I did not. None of the rest of your post has anything to do with any statement I've made. Yes, yes, reasonable doubt means such and such.

Rhythm, I think we've had this conversation before or I'm having deja vu. Tongue
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RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 4:10 pm)Shell B Wrote: Sure, but you keep bringing up its current state, which we both already have a problem with, so we can just leave it out.
Naturally, since it's current state is...well...it's current state.  I've also expressed my objections to your proposed improvements of that state.  Beyond thinking that those improvements, a cheap(er) and flawless system, are beyond silly as expectations of anything that we could ever achieve in the real world...supposing we could, I'd still object to the death penalty on the grounds that -I- find the most compelling, which you may not.  Limits to the power and authority of the State.  The State, by it's very nature, wields a broad and terrifying ability, even when it steps lightly, even when every precaution is taken. I suppose we all have varying experience with or as or in relation to that ability, and those probably have a deeply diversifying effect on our positions regarding the State. I;d lock it in a box as much as possible, anywhere possible, and especially in places where it does something that there is no need for. Things that serve nothing and no one.

Quote:Yeah, see this is more about me just not giving a shit than trying to solve a problem. The way I see it, the people who are hungry for their brand of justice can go ahead and kill these guys, as long as they're extra careful about not killing anyone else. Again, not saying that's what's happening or that it's necessarily possible in this country. Just that those are my criteria for being just plain blasé about it.
I can understand those criteria.  You've compartmentalized it (not criticizing, just noticing).
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 4:21 pm)Rhythm Wrote:
(January 13, 2017 at 4:10 pm)Shell B Wrote: Sure, but you keep bringing up its current state, which we both already have a problem with, so we can just leave it out.
Naturally, since it's current state is...well...it's current state.  I've also expressed my objections to your proposed improvements of that state.  Beyond thinking that those improvements, a cheap(er) and flawless system, are beyond silly as expectations of anything that we could ever achieve in the real world...supposing we could, I'd still object to the death penalty on the grounds that -I- find the most compelling, which you may not.  Limits to the power and authority of the State.  The State, by it's very nature, wields a broad and terrifying ability, even when it steps lightly, even when every precaution is taken.  

Quote:Yeah, see this is more about me just not giving a shit than trying to solve a problem. The way I see it, the people who are hungry for their brand of justice can go ahead and kill these guys, as long as they're extra careful about not killing anyone else. Again, not saying that's what's happening or that it's necessarily possible in this country. Just that those are my criteria for being just plain blasé about it.
I can understand those criteria.  You've compartmentalized it (not criticizing, just noticing).

Shell B, it isn't your reaction to Roof. At least for me my argument is it is simply pointing out we don't live in an ideal society where that would work. It doesn't work as a deterrent because we still have murders. It doesn't work on an economic level because it costs far more to prosecute with the case then the following appeals. It doesn't work because those who don't have a bank account large enough to counter the prosecution so that leaves those with less means at a disadvantage. And admittedly for purely selfish reasons, I know what  it is like to have large numbers hate you when you didn't do it.

It is an oversimplification to simply call them garbage and want to throw them out like trash. I agree Roof is trash, but again, we are talking about an entire system of laws we all live under and climates of attitudes change over time as the powers shift over time. You have to take the larger sample in the entire history. Even scientific method wont allow you to cherry pick your samples. 

Your criteria would only work in an ideal world. 

I think a long term tactic would be to have a society where parents are trained as well as kids things like conflict resolution skills, learn to spot abuse and or mental illness, fund those things, and have livable wages so you have more safety nets to catch a problem. We've had "lock em up and throw away the key for decades now, and even outside murder, we have clear evidence that does not work.
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RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 12:39 pm)A Theist Wrote:
(January 13, 2017 at 11:59 am)Faith No More Wrote: How about "having this law on the books so we can take revenge on these guys puts innocent lives in jeopardy."

Now a question for you.  How many innocent lives are you willing to sacrifice as collateral damage for you to be able to fulfill your lust for revenge?

Hint: There is no way to ensure 100% infallibility of a court case.

A question for me? You didn't answer mine.

What have you been smoking?  I answered it in that first sentence.

Try again?
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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