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Current time: 19th January 2017, 00:28

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Why's it so difficult for some to accept Obama was a good president
#21
RE: Why's it so difficult for some to accept Obama was a good president
It was once argued that it's not the governments job to police what we do with our private modes of transit. They passed a law and they do now.

That argument doesn't fucking fly.

The government will police you from denying medical care to your children despite your implicit grants of decision making power for yor children's health.

The government will police you from spreading an infectious disease (Thyphoid Mary as case example) to the public.

Your argument is fatally flawed given the above invasive (at least from the perspective of the former status quo) counterexamples and is more akin to a political platitude.
What is a drop of rain... compared to the storm?

What is a thought... compared to a mind?
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#22
RE: Why's it so difficult for some to accept Obama was a good president
(11th January 2017, 13:22)mlmooney89 Wrote: Excuse me I have insurance and I think people should have insurance. What I am saying is that the government shouldn't enforce it. It's not the government's job to police what we do to our own bodies.

In 2014, only 1.5% of the adult population had to pay that mandate. I'm sure that number decreased since.

The mandate was necessary in order to get health insurance companies to stop charging more for pre-existing conditions. I don't like the ACA knowing full well it's possible to implement a single-payer system. But this was the only system that could have passed through the Republican congress. It's sad. But over 20 million people are better off for it, myself included. I will continue to defend the ACA, despite its faults.
"When life begins, we are tender and weak.
When life ends, we are stiff and rigid.
All things, including the grass and the trees,
Are soft and pliable in life, dry and brittle in death.
So the soft and supple are the companions of life,
Whilst the stiff and unyielding are the companions of death.
An army that cannot yield will be defeated.
A tree that cannot bend will crack in the wind.
Thus, by nature's own decree,
The hard and strong are defeated,
Whilst the soft and gentle are triumphant."
                                                           
                                                           -Lao-tzu


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#23
RE: Why's it so difficult for some to accept Obama was a good president
Acknowledging Obama did a pretty good job, particularly considering what he had to deal with when he came into office, would be admitting not just that Obama did a good job, but also admitting that the Republican administrating (Bush/Cheney) had done a really bad job.

That ain't gonna happen. Ever.

But also, tens of millions of Americans are fucking idiots. They bought the Swift Boat thing about Kerry. That is, that Kerry, who was by any account a war hero who saved two soldiers' lives while also killing several enemy in the process, was actually the coward, while Dubbya, who never went to Vietnam and was AWOL for a year, was the hero.

It was a thing so ridiculous that most of us wouldn't even think of the idea of trying to convince people of such horse shit. But Republicans know how stupid their supporters are and it worked. Considering that, it's no wonder so many GOP voters believe anything about Obama, no matter how inaccurate or farfetched. GOP operatives now know they can say anything and it'll be believed to a great enough degree to make allow them to win elections.

You just cannot fucking fight that.
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#24
RE: Why's it so difficult for some to accept Obama was a good president
Lost my job because of ACA. Nothing else he did will trump that.
God(s) and religions are man made and the bane of humanity. 

Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. Ozzy or Twain/take your pick
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#25
RE: Why's it so difficult for some to accept Obama was a good president
(11th January 2017, 11:59)mlmooney89 Wrote: I think the main issue I have with the health care is making people have it. I like that it is available to everyone and I think it does good but it shouldn't hurt you to not have it. People can decide to not own a car therefore not need car insurance but they can't be an adult and make decisions about their own health?

The burden falls on everyone else. That's the problem. That's why we have mandatory car insurance---so that if you're liable for an accident, you can help pay the other person's costs. 


It's the same with health insurance. An ER visit costs around $1,000. People without health insurance will end up taking their kid to the ER because they have to treat people in the ER. But if they had health insurance, they could go to a regular doctor for around $100. And guess who pays for the extra $900 for the ER visit: we do. 

So it's not just about you. It's about everyone else that has to pitch in to pay for it when there are far cheaper ways to do that.
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#26
RE: Why's it so difficult for some to accept Obama was a good president
(11th January 2017, 13:22)mlmooney89 Wrote: Excuse me I have insurance and I think people should have insurance. What I am saying is that the government shouldn't enforce it. It's not the government's job to police what we do to our own bodies.


In this case, it is the governments job to ensure that irresponsible people do not download their own costs onto the rest of society. This is why auto insurance is compulsory. You have a car, you have to have car insurance. If you have a body, then you should have to have health insurance for the same reason. 

People know that even with no insurance they will be cared for in an emergency room. Sure, some say "let 'em die" but the reality is that will never happen. They will get hospital care that you will ultimately pay for. These people ride the system for free. Everyone will use the health care system at some point in their lives. That is the reason CONSERVATIVES have supported mandates like Obamacare.  They supported mandates until a black liberal proposed the same thing, which is why they're  now against what they have previously been in favor of.
There are also other ways in which people's health costs are downloaded onto others when they are uninsured. For example, medical bills are the biggest cause of bankruptcies in the US. Others besides the sick get shafted by this. 
The situation is actually extremely complex as there are other considerations and costs to a society that does not insure everyone's health. I don't want to write a book so I'll just leave off here. 

Personally, I don't support systems like Obamacare either. Universal health care is the only way to go and the most efficient method is single payer. There are other creative solutions out there as in Singapore so I would not be closed to hearing any other proposals as long as they cover every single citizen.
If god was real he wouldn't need middle men to explain his wants or do his bidding.
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#27
RE: Why's it so difficult for some to accept Obama was a good president
Omg health insurance is NOT car insurance. Using car insurance is NOT going to help your case to me. You don't HAVE to have car insurance if you decide to not have a car. By buying a car you agree to have insurance. Health insurance you can't say no to. You can't say hey this isn't for me so I'm not going to use it. My husband had to pay because he didn't have insurance for half the year last year and that is bullshit.

And the whole it is making others pay for your shit is a bad reasoning in my book because that happens with a LOT of stuff, no reason to force people to have things that they don't want. You don't want electricity? Don't use it and you don't have to pay for it. Don't want a car/insurance/gas? Don't use it or pay for it. Have a house in the boonies with no electric or water and outright own the land, grow your own food, etc, then do it. No one should be forced to pay for something they don't want. Why is it any different with health care? Because the cost gets put on others? Not good enough for me to think the government gets any say in the matter. Again let me reiterate I DO think people should have insurance, I just don't think it is government mandated.
“What screws us up the most in life is the picture in our head of what it's supposed to be.”

Also if your signature makes my scrolling mess up "you're tacky and I hate you."
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#28
RE: Why's it so difficult for some to accept Obama was a good president
(10th January 2017, 23:02)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: It requires acknowledging that the opposing party may do some good, which is anathema to most American politicians.


Your effort to be fair and impartial here might actually promote the idea that repubs and democrats are equally staunch in their willingness to run the economy into the ground when their party is not in the white house.  That isn't true.

(11th January 2017, 11:59)mlmooney89 Wrote: I actually thought he was a pretty good one. I was never for or against him. I did dislike a few things but that is with anyone, no one is perfect. I think the main issue I have with the health care is making people have it*1. I like that it is available to everyone and I think it does good*2 but it shouldn't hurt you to not have it. People can decide to not own a car therefore not need car insurance but they can't be an adult and make decisions about their own health?


My bolds.  The problem being that short of having bipartisan support for something more ambitious like single payer, the only way you get #2 is with #1.

(11th January 2017, 14:01)Opoponax Wrote: Acknowledging Obama did a pretty good job, particularly considering what he had to deal with when he came into office, would be admitting not just that Obama did a good job, but also admitting that the Republican administrating (Bush/Cheney) had done a really bad job.

That ain't gonna happen. Ever.

But also, tens of millions of Americans are fucking idiots. They bought the Swift Boat thing about Kerry. That is, that Kerry, who was by any account a war hero who saved two soldiers' lives while also killing several enemy in the process, was actually the coward, while Dubbya, who never went to Vietnam and was AWOL for a year, was the hero.

It was a thing so ridiculous that most of us wouldn't even think of the idea of trying to convince people of such horse shit. But Republicans know how stupid their supporters are and it worked. Considering that, it's no wonder so many GOP voters believe anything about Obama, no matter how inaccurate or farfetched. GOP operatives now know they can say anything and it'll be believed to a great enough degree to make allow them to win elections.

You just cannot fucking fight that.


Chief republican strategy for continuing to serve the good of the 1%:  keep the general population poor, ignorant and gullible enough to manipulate through lies promulgated by the faux news organizations which they've bought and warped.

(11th January 2017, 14:09)Crunchy Wrote: Personally, I don't support systems like Obamacare either. Universal health care is the only way to go and the most efficient method is single payer. There are other creative solutions out there as in Singapore so I would not be closed to hearing any other proposals as long as they cover every single citizen.


Tell it brother. If only we didn't live in a moneyocracy in which the dollars of rich determine policy.
Belief .. is the insistence that the truth is what one would .. wish it to be. The believer will open his mind to the truth on the condition that it fits in with his preconceived ideas and wishes. 


Faith, on the other hand, is an unreserved opening of the mind to the truth, whatever it may turn out to be.  


- Alan Watts, The Wisdom of Insecurity
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#29
RE: Why's it so difficult for some to accept Obama was a good president
(11th January 2017, 14:05)Opoponax Wrote: [edit]

It's the same with health insurance. An ER visit costs around $1,000. People without health insurance will end up taking their kid to the ER because they have to treat people in the ER. But if they had health insurance, they could go to a regular doctor for around $100. And guess who pays for the extra $900 for the ER visit: we do. 

[edit]

Non emergencies in the ER, FYI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_..._Labor_Act

This does not fix stupid. Non emergency patients show up at the ER, regardless of insurance coverage. 

I should have to pay for stupid?
God(s) and religions are man made and the bane of humanity. 

Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. Ozzy or Twain/take your pick
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#30
RE: Why's it so difficult for some to accept Obama was a good president
(11th January 2017, 13:52)Moros Synackaon Wrote: It was once argued that it's not the governments job to police what we do with our private modes of transit. They passed a law and they do now.

That argument doesn't fucking fly.

The government will police you from denying medical care to your children despite your implicit grants of decision making power for yor children's health.

The government will police you from spreading an infectious disease (Thyphoid Mary as case example) to the public.

Your argument is fatally flawed given the above invasive (at least from the perspective of the former status quo) counterexamples and is more akin to a political platitude.

She's saying what she thinks ought to be the case, not arguing that it is actually the case
It's not terribly hard to understand that much.

Simply because a government possesses a power does not mean that that government ought to possess that power.

For the record, I think if government mandates carrying health insurance, it ought (there's that word again!) to cut out the middlemen and work it through taxation and gov't provision.

@Whateverist --

It's not an effort on my part to be fair, nor an effort to draw an equivalency ... It's pointing out a basic fact in American politics. Praising the opposing party for its initiatives is a vanishingly rare phenomenon, so far as I can tell.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/

Into the blue ...
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