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Current time: 19th January 2017, 10:55

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I'm sick of hearing about the "Five Ways"!
#11
RE: I'm sick of hearing about the "Five Ways"!
Waiting for Chad.
God(s) and religions are man made and the bane of humanity. 

Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. Ozzy or Twain/take your pick
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#12
RE: I'm sick of hearing about the "Five Ways"!
(11th January 2017, 12:51)Asmodee Wrote: All right, I’m sick to death of hearing about this late Medieval “Five Ways” or “Five Proofs” bullshit.  So it’s time to go through it and tear it apart.


Just another way for theists to believe they have a rational reason to believe the irrational.

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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#13
RE: I'm sick of hearing about the "Five Ways"!
I think of it as a cloaking device for irrationality.

Pure rationality is such a will-o-the-wisp for anyone no matter how little self knowledge we may have. It makes me wonder why more theists don't take the tack: "I'll just stick to my brand of irrationality and you stick to yours". Rather than dress this sort of crazy up this way.
Belief .. is the insistence that the truth is what one would .. wish it to be. The believer will open his mind to the truth on the condition that it fits in with his preconceived ideas and wishes. 


Faith, on the other hand, is an unreserved opening of the mind to the truth, whatever it may turn out to be.  


- Alan Watts, The Wisdom of Insecurity
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#14
RE: I'm sick of hearing about the "Five Ways"!
(11th January 2017, 13:35)mh.brewer Wrote: Waiting for Chad.


Of course he will say that Asmodee does not understand the 5 Ways, so he is arguing against a strawman.

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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#15
RE: I'm sick of hearing about the "Five Ways"!
Regarding the OP:
The relevant  error is in thinking that religion has any real interest in Truth.

Persons are not interested in Truth as much as they are interested in advantage.  Any consideration of Truth in a religious context is a conscious or unconscious attempt to gain such an edge.
"It helps if you think of it as a game, Bob."
In the study of economics, ecology and games there is a thing known as a Nash equilibrium  or an equivalent  evolutionarily stable strategy where all players are playing what they believe is their optimal strategy regardless of whether such belief is true (corresponding with reality) or even if it is truly advantageous for them.  Believers consistently espouse positions contrary to evidence and reason.  Their actions often do advance the interests of their religions and themselves.
Religion has two effective purposes:
1) It keeps a community together and pulling in the same direction.
2) It provides resources and a livelihood for a specialized sub population that would otherwise have to work for a living.  We call them clerics.
So how, exactly, does God know that She's NOT a brain in a vat? Huh
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#16
RE: I'm sick of hearing about the "Five Ways"!
(11th January 2017, 13:35)mh.brewer Wrote: Waiting for Chad.

The OP is so awful, it's not even wrong! If he can’t even get the concept of “First Mover” correct, I don’t see any point of debating. He doesn’t even have enough background knowledge to critically evaluate the results of his internet search. Google is not a substitute for knowledge gained through actual study. I have already debated someone arrogant enough to think they could cut-and-paste their way through a debate.

Debate on Five Ways

Actually, I'm rather sick of talking about the 5 Ways too. They speak for themselves. All I can do is show that the most serious objections are faulty. Otherwise, I don’t have time to correct willful ignorance.

(11th January 2017, 15:25)Simon Moon Wrote: Of course he [Neo-Scholastic] will say that Asmodee does not understand the 5 Ways, so he is arguing against a strawman.

I wouldn't have to if some of the more educated AF members would do so.
Natural science has consistently confirmed Man's capacity to successfully discover laws of Nature by use of reason. If the world is intelligible and human reason effective, as demonstrated by the success of natural science, then the conclusions of Thomas Aquinas’s Five Ways follow with inexorable logic. Therefore, natural science unequivocally supports the proposition that God exists.
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#17
RE: I'm sick of hearing about the "Five Ways"!
Ah, there he is. Now the entertainment can begin. Popcorn
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#18
RE: I'm sick of hearing about the "Five Ways"!
I notice how you linked the debate where you "won".
(12th January 2017, 11:33)Tazzycorn Wrote:
(12th January 2017, 11:16)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Those who compare God to the tooth fairy are douchebags.
True that, at least the Tooth Fairy gives you something in return for your belief and sacrifical offerings. When was the last time god ever did anything for anyone?
"You don't change the world by staying at home and being good" - Mooney
"I reserve the right to be irrational"
― Gemini
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#19
RE: I'm sick of hearing about the "Five Ways"!
(11th January 2017, 15:40)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I notice how you linked the debate where you "won".

The only reason I did the debate was to provide a resource to which I could point others. Misunderstandings about the 5 Ways are legion (see OP).
Natural science has consistently confirmed Man's capacity to successfully discover laws of Nature by use of reason. If the world is intelligible and human reason effective, as demonstrated by the success of natural science, then the conclusions of Thomas Aquinas’s Five Ways follow with inexorable logic. Therefore, natural science unequivocally supports the proposition that God exists.
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#20
RE: I'm sick of hearing about the "Five Ways"!
None of the 5 ways actually demonstrate anything.
(12th January 2017, 11:33)Tazzycorn Wrote:
(12th January 2017, 11:16)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Those who compare God to the tooth fairy are douchebags.
True that, at least the Tooth Fairy gives you something in return for your belief and sacrifical offerings. When was the last time god ever did anything for anyone?
"You don't change the world by staying at home and being good" - Mooney
"I reserve the right to be irrational"
― Gemini
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