How literally should we take the Qur'an ?

[R00tKiT]

That's a fact. Read the verse, "And We created from water every living thing" (21:30) for example. According to the biological classification known as the two-domain system, all living organisms are either:

..... living organisms are largely made of water.

This fact couldn't have been known by anyone in the prophet PBUH's time, and it could have been easily falsified. There is nothing left to say, this verse is a miracle.

"We created from water every living thing" = every living thing is largely water

The only miracle is why you have such low standards to believe in stupid shit, any why you have such a strong drive to reconcile this shit with what we know to be true.

Bold mine. You're obviously quoting me out of context, your blatant dishonesty above is the reason why you see (and many like you) a contradiction in every Qur'anic verse.

 It's enough for this verse to be plausibly considered a miracle, that every living organism is composed of water. Read again: every organism. This information is not available to anybody, even now, if they don't have the suitable equipment.

Because he thinks that, back then, this was not known to humanity, unless it was handed down from a higher power.

The fact that bacteria and eukaryotic cells (which are the only two domains of life) contain water was obviously not known to humanity. And it's not knowable by reasoning alone that all lifeforms are made of water. You need knowledge of modern cell biology and lab equipment for that.

As if populations didn't gather around bodies of water for a reason during the previous thousands of years. As if ancient Greeks didn't already postulate that water was key to life.

The ancient greeks also believed that the four classical elements explain all existence. 

Populations gathering around water just means that.. they were gathering around water, not that they claimed every lifeform is composed of water.

Do you want to share any more moronic statements ?

'water is the source of all life'
attributed to Thales of Miletus (624-546 BC)

Check your sources, Thales claimed that everything originates from water, not just lifeforms. He thought water changes into fire, air and fire.

You can see that the Islamic prophet was more careful and knowledgeable than you , a guy with an internet connexion living in the 21st century, with unlimited access to any information, when he purportedly made up the Qur'an from greek sources.. lol.

[The Grand Nudger]

But not more careful or more knowledgeable than the next long dead greek, which magic book liberally lifts from, and gets as wrong as, those long dead greeks.

[Fake Messiah]

 It's enough for this verse to be plausibly considered a miracle, that every living organism is composed of water. Read again: every organism. This information is not available to anybody, even now, if they don't have the suitable equipment.

Quran, just like Bible, claims that God created the universe in six days. Earth is created on the first day. Four days later, God creates the sun, moon, and stars. And other nonsenses.

Talking about the water part in Quran is very imprecise so it could mean anything. You claim that it means that people are made from water, but humans are made of lots of things, not just water. So it seems it's just your confirmation bias for which you are being arrogant about it by calling other people morons for not believing you.

Indeed, using confirmation bias with arrogance, any creation myth can be "true".

Take an ancient Chinese myth which tells us that everything started in chaos. The universe was like a black egg (a black hole?). A god named Pan Gu, wielding an axe, breaks the egg and the heavens begin to expand. The fleas and lice on Pan Gu's body evolve into humankind.

[pocaracas]

"We created from water every living thing" = every living thing is largely water

The only miracle is why you have such low standards to believe in stupid shit, any why you have such a strong drive to reconcile this shit with what we know to be true.

Bold mine. You're obviously quoting me out of context, your blatant dishonesty above is the reason why you see (and many like you) a contradiction in every Qur'anic verse.

 It's enough for this verse to be plausibly considered a miracle, that every living organism is composed of water. Read again: every organism. This information is not available to anybody, even now, if they don't have the suitable equipment.

Because he thinks that, back then, this was not known to humanity, unless it was handed down from a higher power.

The fact that bacteria and eukaryotic cells (which are the only two domains of life) contain water was obviously not known to humanity. And it's not knowable by reasoning alone that all lifeforms are made of water. You need knowledge of modern cell biology and lab equipment for that.

As if populations didn't gather around bodies of water for a reason during the previous thousands of years. As if ancient Greeks didn't already postulate that water was key to life.

The ancient greeks also believed that the four classical elements explain all existence. 

Populations gathering around water just means that.. they were gathering around water, not that they claimed every lifeform is composed of water.

Do you want to share any more moronic statements ?

'water is the source of all life'
attributed to Thales of Miletus (624-546 BC)

Check your sources, Thales claimed that everything originates from water, not just lifeforms. He thought water changes into fire, air and fire.

You can see that the Islamic prophet was more careful and knowledgeable than you , a guy with an internet connexion living in the 21st century, with unlimited access to any information, when he purportedly made up the Qur'an from greek sources.. lol.

Checking.... yale.edu seems legit:

https://teachersinstitute.yale.edu/curri....11.x.html

""
Thales the Milesian (639-544 B.C.), was one of the Seven Sages of Miletus. He was fond of “physis,” the Greek word meaning nature. He was a self-educated man who had learned a great deal by traveling. He was a wealthy man, as most studiers of science were, with a very high social standing. Because of this high social standing he collected many disciples. What is today called science was born over two thousand years ago in this Ionian colony with this Ionian descendent. Thales questioned the real meaning of things he saw in his world and he had a great desire to go beyond the facts and try to find out the reasons for their existence.

One of Thales’ contributions was based upon his observation that water was the most abundant material on the Earth and all plants and animals needed it for life. He postulated that life originated from water and that everything died when deprived of it. This concept, although based on reason, still had a magic aura about itself since Thales did not attempt to explain how or why the birth and death actually occurred.
[...]
A student of Thales, Anaximander of Miletus (611-547), helped to free Thales’ concept from magic and helped the elevation of science into pure reason
""

And then it went downhill.
But the notion is there.


In parallel, in India
https://washmatters.wateraid.org/publica...r-in-india
""
The Vedic Period (2000-600 BC) - the Sanctification of Water

In Vedic texts, water is referred to as Apah, or literally the Waters. The Waters are considered to be purifying in a spiritual context.
‘Hail to you, divine, unfathomable, all purifying Waters...’(Rg Veda).
The Rg Veda identifies the Waters as the first residence or ayana of Nara, the Eternal Being and therefore water is said to be pratishtha, the underlying principle, or the very foundation of this universe.
‘Water may pour from the heaven or run along the channels dug out by men; or flow clear and pure having the Ocean as their goal...In the midst of the Waters is moving the Lord, surveying men’s truth and men’s lies. How sweet are the Waters, crystal clear and cleansing...From whom... all the Deities drink exhilarating strength, into whom the Universal Lord has entered...’(Satapatha).

Early Vedic texts also identify water as a manifestation of the feminine principle, known commonly as Sakti. ‘I call the Waters, Goddesses, wherein our cattle quench their thirst; Oblations to the streams be given...’(Rg Veda). It is said that the primordial cosmic man or Purusa was born of the Waters.
Similarly later Vedic texts identify that, ‘Water is female...’(Satapatha)
""

"The Primordial man was born of the Waters"... life comes from water.

Clearly, this should not have been a foreign notion to someone hundreds of years later and geographically in between these two regions.
But hey... God-did-it sounds much more reasonable, doesn't it?

[Angrboda]

Yeah what would desert nomads, familiar with the practice of sucking water out of the flesh of desert plants, know about this?

[The Architect Of Fate]

Yes because living in a desert teaches nothing about the value of water and where to get it .....Had to be god magic ....

[R00tKiT]

Quran, just like Bible, claims that God created the universe in six days. Earth is created on the first day. Four days later, God creates the sun, moon, and stars.

And why do you consider this to be a mistake? The duration of a day in these verses isn't the one we're familiar with, it could be any arbitrary duration that only God knows, the theist can legitimately argue along these lines.

But there is one thing that doesn't change, even if the durations are disagreed upon: ratios of durations !

With this in mind, some muslim apologists went further and turned the tables, there is a numerical miracle in the verses about creation :

Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds. (9)

He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance). (10)

Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience." (11)
 
So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. (12) 

[7-9,10,11,12]

From these verses we learn that : 

(1) In the first two days of creation (out of 6): God created the Earth.

(2) In the first four days of creation (which overlap with the first two days above): God bestowed mountains, and various sources of nourishment and blessings.

(3) In the last two days (out of 6): He completed the heavens as seven firmaments. 

The two last statements can easily be misunderstood, especially when the verse is not read in Arabic. The statement (1) however is clear and incontrovertible, it can't be interpreted in any other way, the age of the Earth is 2/6 that of the creation as a whole (e.g. the universe), and 2/6 is 1/3.

We now know that the age of the Earth is 4.5 billion years, and that of the universe is is approximately 13.7 billion years, the ratio 4.5/13.7 (=0.328...) is very close to 1/3.

If we take more decimals in the ratio from available data 4.543/13.787 = 0.3295.., we only get closer and closer to 1/3.

[The Grand Nudger]

IDK that I'd call it a legitimate argument so much as explicit acknowledgement that magic book got that wrong.

[R00tKiT]

Checking.... yale.edu seems legit:

https://teachersinstitute.yale.edu/curri....11.x.html

""
Thales the Milesian (639-544 B.C.), was one of the Seven Sages of Miletus. He was fond of “physis,” the Greek word meaning nature. He was a self-educated man who had learned a great deal by traveling. He was a wealthy man, as most studiers of science were, with a very high social standing. Because of this high social standing he collected many disciples. What is today called science was born over two thousand years ago in this Ionian colony with this Ionian descendent. Thales questioned the real meaning of things he saw in his world and he had a great desire to go beyond the facts and try to find out the reasons for their existence.

One of Thales’ contributions was based upon his observation that water was the most abundant material on the Earth and all plants and animals needed it for life. He postulated that life originated from water and that everything died when deprived of it. This concept, although based on reason, still had a magic aura about itself since Thales did not attempt to explain how or why the birth and death actually occurred.
[...]
A student of Thales, Anaximander of Miletus (611-547), helped to free Thales’ concept from magic and helped the elevation of science into pure reason
""

And then it went downhill.
But the notion is there.

Emphasis on 'went downhill'. Sure, I grant you that some ancient greek guy wrote somewhere that life originated from water (he knows no one will bat an eye if he's proven wrong). But we're talking here about someone who claimed he got revelation from God, the stakes are pretty high I would say. How would the prophet tell fact from fiction when copying stuff from the ancient greeks ? 

The central question : Why didn't the Islamic prophet copy the part where it went downhill ? I mean, you're clearly trying to chalk up some Qur'anic verses to plagiarism from greek sources, but curiously you only find the part that turned out to be true in the Qur'an, where is the other, larger part of failed scientific claims like the Earth floating on water, in the Qur'an ??? or the theory of the four classical elements ??

If I were to make up some purportedly divine book, I'll never make any statement about the Earth, or water, or the sky, or anything similar. There are probably billions of conflicting statements about the workings of nature that were made in history, and the prophet just seems to pick the right ones.

[The Architect Of Fate]

He never claimed they did this. He was pointing out that no one needed a god to learn this stuff and it's possible he honestly attributed his own understanding to a revelation from god. Either way, something perfectly within human reason and understanding within that time is hardly miraculous. And even if the idea had been copied from the greeks and elsewhere there is no reason to think they had a complete understanding of what they knew with more than covers why they could have gotten some ideas they copied wrong or only got parts right.