How do religions inspire people to be good?

[Cecelia]

Some people need a carrot. "Do good things, and you'll be rewarded!"

My husbands cousins are the type. They donate to charity, and everything. Why? "God will reward us when we get to heaven." They don't even care if they're ACTUALLY helping people. They once said that it doesn't matter if you give money to someone who doesn't really need it--because God will reward you for your intentions.

Of course they're not really good people. They're some of the most ignorant bigoted people I know. They're also bullies who had posts deleted on facebook because of their bullying. All religion really does is convince assholes to be assholes who do good things once in a while because they were promised rewards for doing good things. (And as someone pointed out to me--this doesn't create good people, because they're doing it for a reward, not because they want to)

[robvalue]

Yeah, it may produce better behavior, or rather desirable behavior. It doesn't make the person actually good though, it's just forcing them to act a certain way. If you have to threaten someone, then clearly they are acting against their nature.

I suppose the argument could be made that it becomes part of their nature, if they act that way long enough.

That brings up the question of how ethical it is to "program" someone by fear.

And the thing is, how would you convince the person that they are now being "better"? According to their own standards, they are now doing things that go against their own values.

"To do is to be," to paraphrase Sartre. We are the sum of our actions. There is no "you" lurking underneath the surface. If religion can inspire people to act better than they would without it, I'd be satisfied. But there's little evidence of that generally.

The problem is if the programming stops working, and the person sees through the religion.

However, I've also seen little evidence that someone leaving religion make them a worse person for it. In fact I've heard a lot of people who become better, because they realized they were harboring irrational bigotry.

[ApeNotKillApe]

Jeff Dahmer felt that religion kept his eccentricities under control. I suppose that he ended up leaving Christianity and killing people makes it a moot point, as it clearly didn't keep him controlled.

[robvalue]

Yeah, controlling psychopaths is one of the only big arguments I can see. But I feel secular, scientific methods are still far superior.

[ApeNotKillApe]

But which is better is not the topic of discussion.

One can argue that abstaining from evil is not necessarily 'good' in itself but that's a semantics game.

[robvalue]

You're correct. So religion can cause psychopaths to behave as if they cared about other people, even though they don't.

I suppose what I was thinking of in the OP is how can religion change someone so that they want to do good things just because they are good things, and not just because their religions tells them to? I feel some theists have implied in other threads that this happens. And I don't get how or why.

I suppose they could see one of their religious characters as a good role model, and it could make them re-assess what kind of person they are. But then that's not really a religious thing, it's just being inspired by a good person.

[ApeNotKillApe]

You're correct. So religion can cause psychopaths to behave as if they cared about other people, even though they don't.

I suppose what I was thinking of in the OP is how can religion change someone so that they want to do good things just because they are good things, and not just because their religions tells them to? I feel some theists have implied in other threads that this happens. And I don't get how or why.

You want an instance of someone who acted on their beliefs without their beliefs factoring into their actions.

Religion provides context, that context provides faith - hope - that their efforts will be rewarded, that their struggles aren't in vain, that 'something' appreciates them, is looking out for them. The promise of reward factors in by the nature of it; it's up to the individual to act on that information. It can motivate people to do suicidally reckless things, whether it's walking into a warzone to give vaccines to children, flying a plane into a skyscraper, or tightrope-walking over the Grand Canyon. Yes, seriously.

Can it "change" people? I don't even know what that means. What does it matter if they look forward to a reward in the end? As far as I'm aware, the jury is still out on whether or not altruism even exists, even can exist. Your motives don't justify your actions, your actions speak for themselves. If some couple dedicates their lives to adopting and caring for disabled orphans, what the fuck do I care if they expect a post-mortem gift basket from the cosmic person? It's irrelevant to me.

I suppose they could see one of their religious characters as a good role model, and it could make them re-assess what kind of person they are. But then that's not really a religious thing, it's just being inspired by a good person.

I think you're splitting hairs. If that figure is a figure of the person's religious adherence, then they are a religious figure. If not, then not.

[robvalue]

Yeah, perhaps my question is malformed. I'm trying to address the claims being made, but perhaps the claims are similarly malformed. Or I'm not interpreting them correctly.

[ApeNotKillApe]

Yeah, perhaps my question is malformed. I'm trying to address the claims being made, but perhaps the claims are similarly malformed. Or I'm not interpreting them correctly.

All of the above, I'd say. Can't interpret them because the claim is a characteristically meaningless oversimplification to begin with.

[Natachan]

Some people need an external reason to behave well. I don't think religion inspires people to do good for the sake of good, because I'm not certain they understand the concept.

One of the very negative effects of religion is that it comes with a built in thought system and a built in morality and philosophy. You don't have to think about it, you don't have to learn anything, you just have to obey the edicts. And while they might tell you "love thy neighbor" they can't really say why or what that means beyond that god tells them to. And without a firm justification for why something is good or bad it becomes hard to make ethical decisions.