Posts: 71
Threads: 3
Joined: January 1, 2017
Reputation:
5
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
January 31, 2017 at 12:26 pm
(This post was last modified: January 31, 2017 at 12:27 pm by Redoubtable.)
(January 31, 2017 at 10:19 am)SteveII Wrote: You keep equating the term "moral failure" with disbelief. They are not the same. If you disbelieve, the "church" and other Christian just think you are wrong--not a moral failure. Perhaps you think using the term adds weight to your objection. A person deserves to be eternally separated from God for rejecting him when given the opportunity. Rejecting an eternal God has eternal consequences for an immortal soul--I don't think that is as big of a philosophical leap as you think.
-If I have no moral obligation to believe in the gospel, then I shouldn't be punished for not believing.
-According to Christians I will be punished for not believing, therefore I have a moral obligation to believe.
-Failure to fulfill a moral obligation is a moral failure/sin.
Where do you disagree in this line of thinking?
Posts: 3045
Threads: 14
Joined: July 7, 2014
Reputation:
14
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
January 31, 2017 at 12:54 pm
(January 31, 2017 at 12:26 pm)Redoubtable Wrote: (January 31, 2017 at 10:19 am)SteveII Wrote: You keep equating the term "moral failure" with disbelief. They are not the same. If you disbelieve, the "church" and other Christian just think you are wrong--not a moral failure. Perhaps you think using the term adds weight to your objection. A person deserves to be eternally separated from God for rejecting him when given the opportunity. Rejecting an eternal God has eternal consequences for an immortal soul--I don't think that is as big of a philosophical leap as you think.
-If I have no moral obligation to believe in the gospel, then I shouldn't be punished for not believing.
-According to Christians I will be punished for not believing, therefore I have a moral obligation to believe.
-Failure to fulfill a moral obligation is a moral failure/sin.
Where do you disagree in this line of thinking?
Because salvation (or lack thereof) is not a moral issue. It is a legal issue (judgement, payment for sin, substitution, penalty, etc. are all key words).
Posts: 66304
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
January 31, 2017 at 12:57 pm
Oh? Then, conceivably, a moral person will burn regardless.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 7568
Threads: 20
Joined: July 26, 2013
Reputation:
54
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
January 31, 2017 at 1:00 pm
(January 31, 2017 at 12:54 pm)SteveII Wrote: (January 31, 2017 at 12:26 pm)Redoubtable Wrote: -If I have no moral obligation to believe in the gospel, then I shouldn't be punished for not believing.
-According to Christians I will be punished for not believing, therefore I have a moral obligation to believe.
-Failure to fulfill a moral obligation is a moral failure/sin.
Where do you disagree in this line of thinking?
Because salvation (or lack thereof) is not a moral issue. It is a legal issue (judgement, payment for sin, substitution, penalty, etc. are all key words).
And talk about a hung jury!
*rim shot*
I'll grab my hat.
Posts: 3045
Threads: 14
Joined: July 7, 2014
Reputation:
14
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
January 31, 2017 at 1:26 pm
(January 31, 2017 at 12:57 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Oh? Then, conceivably, a moral person will burn regardless.
Define a 'moral person'.
Posts: 66304
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
January 31, 2017 at 1:49 pm
No need, -you- made the distinction.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 13392
Threads: 187
Joined: March 18, 2012
Reputation:
48
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
January 31, 2017 at 4:38 pm
(January 30, 2017 at 4:06 pm)Redoubtable Wrote: (January 30, 2017 at 10:17 am)Drich Wrote: If you want proof learn to seek God on His terms, and hold on to something.
So the only way to come to understand the truth of your religion is by assuming it is true in the first place; then proceed to act and think accordingly? I don't see how this is persuasive in any respect. Islam makes the same exact demand, as do other religions and cults so why should I invest my faith in your Christian denomination versus any other, or Christianity versus any other religion?
Moron..
Let me talk more simple.
If you want proof GPS works, You must learn to follow the lady's voice commands. Can't go where you want and assume it is the GPS' fault when you fail to arrive.
The bible is a simple set of instructions, where the philosphy your trying to apply fails is your trying to impose that first one must believe. Not the case. One must simply follow the instructions provided. or so was the example of doubting Thomas.
Posts: 13051
Threads: 66
Joined: February 7, 2011
Reputation:
92
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
January 31, 2017 at 5:17 pm
(January 30, 2017 at 8:53 pm)Redoubtable Wrote: I completely agree, which is why I think the argument that centers around equating disbelief in the God of classical theism with gods Thor or Zeus a bad argument because Thor and Zeus aren't gods in the sense classical theists use the word. These gods of ancient myth are basically superheroes, they're just really powerful versions of humans and don't really have anything in common with the god of classical theism other than the three letter title. My criticisms in this thread aren't aimed at the existence of a god, in fact you can presuppose a god exists (in fact I'm inclined to believe in one even if I don't claim to know for certain) in my criticisms of these religions. My criticism is aimed at the religions specifically and in this case Christianity.
Well, how do you think Yahweh started? If you think that theists didn't originally imagine him as a bearded superhero in the sky whipping lightning bolts just like Zeus, you're sadly mistaken. It's only with scientific advances that they suddenly re-imagined him as an immaterial entity outside of space and time. Don't be fooled by theists like Chad's attempts at revising the intentions of the original writers.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
Posts: 8709
Threads: 128
Joined: March 1, 2012
Reputation:
54
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
January 31, 2017 at 5:37 pm
(This post was last modified: January 31, 2017 at 5:46 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
(January 31, 2017 at 12:26 pm)Redoubtable Wrote: -If I have no moral obligation to believe in the gospel, then I shouldn't be punished for not believing.
-According to Christians I will be punished for not believing, therefore I have a moral obligation to believe.
-Failure to fulfill a moral obligation is a moral failure/sin.
Where do you disagree in this line of thinking?
If you don't mind, I'd like to jump in on this one. Sin is its own punishment. People are already being punished in this way everyday, not just in the distant future. The issue is whether or not you choose to be delivered from the power of sin over the whole of your life, both now and in the hereafter.
(January 31, 2017 at 5:17 pm)Faith No More Wrote: (January 30, 2017 at 8:53 pm)Redoubtable Wrote: I completely agree, which is why I think the argument that centers around equating disbelief in the God of classical theism with gods Thor or Zeus a bad argument because Thor and Zeus aren't gods in the sense classical theists use the word. These gods of ancient myth are basically superheroes, they're just really powerful versions of humans and don't really have anything in common with the god of classical theism other than the three letter title. My criticisms in this thread aren't aimed at the existence of a god, in fact you can presuppose a god exists (in fact I'm inclined to believe in one even if I don't claim to know for certain) in my criticisms of these religions. My criticism is aimed at the religions specifically and in this case Christianity.
Well, how do you think Yahweh started? If you think that theists didn't originally imagine him as a bearded superhero in the sky whipping lightning bolts just like Zeus, you're sadly mistaken. It's only with scientific advances that they suddenly re-imagined him as an immaterial entity outside of space and time. Don't be fooled by theists like Chad's attempts at revising the intentions of the original writers.
Buzzzzz. Sorry, FNM, no cigar for you! YHVH is the acronym for the way God identified himself to Moses, not by name but by His divine nature - "I am that I am". Sounds pretty consistent with a Being Whose Existence is identical to His Essence. Doesn't get more original than Exodus 3:14.
Posts: 66304
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
January 31, 2017 at 5:50 pm
(This post was last modified: January 31, 2017 at 5:51 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Sin doesn't seem very punishing to some, maybe to their victims, but meh. Then, ofc there are those "sins" which harm neither victims nor the sinner. I'm not sure how any choosing is supposed to deliver a person from the power of sin, and I see alot of people making that choice and not being delivered, in any case.
3 christians, 40 opinions on sin, apparently. Each one as puerile as the last.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
|
