Posts: 71
Threads: 3
Joined: January 1, 2017
Reputation:
5
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
February 25, 2017 at 2:48 pm
(This post was last modified: February 25, 2017 at 2:56 pm by Redoubtable.)
(February 19, 2017 at 11:58 pm)Odoital77 Wrote: I'm genuinely mystified by what you've written here. I've been a Christian for 36 years, and a serious one, of sorts, for the last 20, and much of what you've said that Christians believe is completely foreign to me. In re-reading it, I think I can make some tenuous connection to it, but it's been so twisted and re-stated to make Christians seem far more arrogant and militant than they or their beliefs would actually make them in reality.
Please keep in mind I'm not talking about attitudes of arrogance in individual Christians, I'm talking about the system in general.
(February 19, 2017 at 11:58 pm)Odoital77 Wrote: First, yes, it is reasonable to have faith. Second, yes, you are morally obliged to put your faith in God. However, your moral obligation is not to me and not to the Christian religion. Your moral obligation is to God, and Him alone. Everyone is morally obliged to obey their Creator. In fact, if the God of the Bible actually exists, then this would seem to be a pretty uncontroversial claim, would it not?
I agree with most of what you say here (I do believe in a God) but I have reservations about the Christian belief system in particular. The issue I have is that we are told we have a moral obligation to adhere to the true religion (and reject false ones), not controversial at this point, but the problem to me is that arriving at this conclusion demands an intellectual leap that goes beyond the evidence. If this course is not outright unreasonable then it is at the very least a gamble and an often imprudent gamble in my opinion. Muslims and people of other religions make similar claims, that at some point, even if things don't make sense we have to take a leap of faith and accept their faith as true. So what makes a leap of faith a reliable method of arriving at particular beliefs?
So from my point of view it is unfair for the God of Christianity to threaten his own creations with eternal suffering for not coming to the conclusion that Christian beliefs are true. The arrogance to me lies in the fact that someone's inability to come to the conclusion that Christianity is true is reckoned to be a moral failure on their part, and such a moral failure in the Christian God's eyes that it merits the fires of Hell. To me that's like having a teacher not stating or not stating clearly what the requirements for an assignment were and then punishing the students who did a poor job, calling them lazy slackers who deserve an F for being unable to make the leap to assume what the requirements were.
Anyone of us would view that teacher as an arrogant sociopath, and yet it seems to me that the case of people approaching Christianity is far more difficult than the classroom situation in my analogy. So many people haven't even heard of Christianity to begin with, and from my former practice and study of it there are enough reasonable doubts about it (even if it was true) that any good, just, or merciful God (if he is indeed good, just, or merciful) would be inclined to not condemn his creations to eternal torment for not being able to come to the conclusion that it is true.
Posts: 25314
Threads: 239
Joined: August 26, 2010
Reputation:
156
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
February 25, 2017 at 3:38 pm
(February 19, 2017 at 10:14 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Yes, Lek, they tell us lots of things. I don't buy the "lack of belief" schtick. It's a dodgy way to deny their incredulity.
Please tell me again what I do and do not believe. It's so helpful.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
Posts: 3475
Threads: 29
Joined: December 14, 2013
Reputation:
20
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
February 26, 2017 at 1:29 pm
(February 25, 2017 at 3:38 pm)Stimbo Wrote: (February 19, 2017 at 10:14 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Yes, Lek, they tell us lots of things. I don't buy the "lack of belief" schtick. It's a dodgy way to deny their incredulity.
Please tell me again what I do and do not believe. It's so helpful.
Am I wrong?
Posts: 25314
Threads: 239
Joined: August 26, 2010
Reputation:
156
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
February 26, 2017 at 4:55 pm
Was I talking to you?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
Posts: 22
Threads: 0
Joined: February 22, 2017
Reputation:
1
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
February 26, 2017 at 5:33 pm
(January 30, 2017 at 1:37 am)robvalue Wrote: I agree that anyone who thinks their faith and resultant beliefs deserve respect without question can get bent. I don't owe anyone that. I will respect them as a person, and I will respect their right to believe what they wish and to voice their beliefs (non-intrusively), but I won't pretend to respect the actual beliefs if they are stupid bullshit.
Faith is a joke. It's a desperate attempt to cling onto magical stories, instead of facing reality on its own terms. It's dangerous, because you can view this life as the warm-up rather than the main event. A sceptic has more reason to make the most of this life.
PS: If a person of faith expects me to respect their faith, do they find my belief that their faith is bullshit respectable or not?
PPS: I would never, however, go tell some random theist my opinion in person; nor would I bring it up in discussion with them unless they ask for my thoughts on it.
But I'll happily write it for all to see here. No one is making anyone read my posts.
Exactly what I'm saying, this so called respect needed is quite irritating and obnoxious. If you really want me to respect derogatory lies then prove to me your faith is right.
"the only problem with Islamic fundamentalism are the fundamentals of Islam" - Sam Harris
Posts: 3475
Threads: 29
Joined: December 14, 2013
Reputation:
20
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
February 26, 2017 at 6:14 pm
(February 26, 2017 at 4:55 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Was I talking to you?
I'm so extremely sorry.
Posts: 2080
Threads: 65
Joined: August 30, 2015
Reputation:
24
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
February 26, 2017 at 8:38 pm
I think the real arrogance in Christianity is clear from the claim that the Bible is inerrant. How arrogant must one be to presume that a book written over 2000 years ago by people they don't know is 100% trustworthy, and that everyone else should obviously see it the same way.
The whole tone of Church teaching in regard to woman is, to the last degree, contemptuous and degrading. - Elizabeth Cady Stanton
Posts: 6851
Threads: 76
Joined: October 17, 2012
Reputation:
31
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
February 28, 2017 at 12:07 pm
Lately I've been finding it interesting that many of the same people who say that personal beliefs regarding religion are meaningless to them, somehow think that personal beliefs regarding gender identity are sacrosanct, to the point of wanting government to force others to accept such beliefs, or at least the practical ramifications of them.
Posts: 10405
Threads: 15
Joined: September 9, 2011
Reputation:
119
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
February 28, 2017 at 12:26 pm
(This post was last modified: February 28, 2017 at 12:27 pm by Mister Agenda.)
Neo-Scholastic Wrote:Yes, Lek, they tell us lots of things. I don't buy the "lack of belief" schtick. It's a dodgy way to deny their incredulity.
My lacking belief in your God and finding your claims about your God incredible is in no way contradictory, they mesh perfectly. Why would you expect me to believe something I find incredible in advance of being convinced that I am wrong about that? That said, your claims are not wrong just because I find them incredible.
Lek Wrote:Stimbo Wrote:Please tell me again what I do and do not believe. It's so helpful.
Am I wrong?
About what?
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
Posts: 8709
Threads: 128
Joined: March 1, 2012
Reputation:
54
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
February 28, 2017 at 1:09 pm
(February 28, 2017 at 12:26 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: My lacking belief in your God and finding your claims about your God incredible is in no way contradictory, they mesh perfectly. Why would you expect me to believe something I find incredible in advance of being convinced that I am wrong about that? That said, your claims are not wrong just because I find them incredible.
The proposition "God exists"? is either true or not true - credulous or incredulous. Those are your only options as per the law of the excluded middle. I feel that if you are incredulous then you should be able to adequately give an account for it. The idea that the default stance is non-belief is based on a non-sequitur. Even if there is no compelling reason to accept either P or not-P, it does not mean one should accept not-P. That is an unjustified move from 'is' to 'ought'.
|
