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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 8, 2017 at 11:31 am
(This post was last modified: February 8, 2017 at 11:33 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Good to know that neither of us believes in ghosts, nevertheless...why is magic a problem when it;s proposed as an answer to those things you claim -cannot- be explained naturally? Is it like the thing with fairies...where you just don;t like the word...or is there some substance to your objection to what you yourself would propose by another name?
More than that, what the hell is the point of even making the implication if you're going to immediately rail against it's supposition.....?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 8, 2017 at 12:46 pm
(This post was last modified: February 8, 2017 at 12:48 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
Simon's question was if there were things naturalism cannot explain. I listed three. The problem isn't that someday, maybe natural explanations will appear. The problem is that naturalism (based on the arbitrary self-imposed rules of analytic philosophy) either logically excludes any kinds of solutions or wishes away phenomena that require explanation. Maybe you know about a kind of naturalism with which I'm not familiar.
All I can say for now, without knowing any specific theory naturalistic theory of mind Simon Moon or you think will save you from absurdism, is that any appeal to 'emergent properties' (ghosts out of the machine) or 'epiphenominalism' (i.e. ectoplasm) is itself the real magical thinking. Likewise, ignoring the obvious contingency of the physical universe is really just hand-waving. Or thinking that undirected and irrational physical processes can supply rational moral imperatives to a complex electro-chemical reaction is just...to put it diplomatically, not very bright.
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 8, 2017 at 12:53 pm
(This post was last modified: February 8, 2017 at 12:56 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(February 8, 2017 at 12:46 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Simon's question was if there were things naturalism cannot explain. I listed three. The problem isn't that someday, maybe natural explanations will appear. The problem is that naturalism (based on the arbitrary self-imposed rules of analytic philosophy) either logically excludes any kinds of solutions or wishes away phenomena that require explanation. If you say so, it must be so....
Quote:Maybe you know about a kind of naturalism with which I'm not familiar.
I'd have a higher opinion of you if I thought that were true. We both know it;s not, and that this is just another example of shameless pandering to your pov, rather than a summary of what you are and aren't familiar with. You don't -like- the natural explanations for a given x....you prefer fairies..but you're not ignorant of those explanations, and it's not as if they don't exist.
Quote:All I can say for now, without knowing any specific theory naturalistic theory of mind Simon Moon or you think will save you from absurdism, is that any appeal to 'emergent properties' (ghosts out of the machine) or 'epiphenominalism' (i.e. ectoplasm) is itself the real magical thinking.
Is magic a problem....?
Quote:Likewise, ignoring the obvious contingency of the physical universe is really just hand-waving. Or thinking that undirected and irrational physical processes can supply rational moral imperatives to a complex electro-chemical reaction is just...to put it diplomatically, not very bright.
Right, so, magic. What's the problem?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 8, 2017 at 1:12 pm
(This post was last modified: February 8, 2017 at 1:15 pm by Neo-Scholastic.
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 8, 2017 at 1:14 pm
What's the point, we both have the correct answer, magic. Magic explains what naturalism cannot, don't you think?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 8, 2017 at 1:14 pm
(February 8, 2017 at 12:53 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I'd have a higher opinion of you if I thought that were true. We both know it;s not, and that this is just another example of shameless pandering to your pov, rather than a summary of what you are and aren't familiar with. You don't -like- the natural explanations for a given x....you prefer fairies..but you're not ignorant of those explanations, and it's not as if they don't exist.
I suppose you're right. I'm probably more familiar with the deficiencies of materialist theories of mind than you are with the up-dated classical solutions. I could send you a reading list if you'd like.
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 8, 2017 at 8:39 pm
(This post was last modified: February 8, 2017 at 8:41 pm by Jehanne.)
(February 7, 2017 at 11:17 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (February 7, 2017 at 7:37 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Just curious, what do you think there is that naturalism cannot explain?
Oh let's see...being-as-such...intentionality...moral imperatives...
Why do you then that naturalism cannot explain those? Can you be more specific?
(February 8, 2017 at 12:46 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Simon's question was if there were things naturalism cannot explain. I listed three. The problem isn't that someday, maybe natural explanations will appear. The problem is that naturalism (based on the arbitrary self-imposed rules of analytic philosophy) either logically excludes any kinds of solutions or wishes away phenomena that require explanation. Maybe you know about a kind of naturalism with which I'm not familiar.
All I can say for now, without knowing any specific theory naturalistic theory of mind Simon Moon or you think will save you from absurdism, is that any appeal to 'emergent properties' (ghosts out of the machine) or 'epiphenominalism' (i.e. ectoplasm) is itself the real magical thinking. Likewise, ignoring the obvious contingency of the physical universe is really just hand-waving. Or thinking that undirected and irrational physical processes can supply rational moral imperatives to a complex electro-chemical reaction is just...to put it diplomatically, not very bright.
Do you think chimps have souls? How about bacteria? Your arguments, to me, as an atheist, sound like the classic "god of the gaps". How about lightning? Do you believe that we need God to explain lightning?
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 8, 2017 at 11:17 pm
(February 8, 2017 at 12:46 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:
I like how the question is avoided, and the focus is put back on you. I think that says a lot.
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 8, 2017 at 11:19 pm
What question, RR, and what does that say, in your estimation?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Occam's Razor, atheism, theism and polytheism.
February 9, 2017 at 11:03 pm
(February 8, 2017 at 11:17 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (February 8, 2017 at 12:46 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:
I like how the question is avoided, and the focus is put back on you. I think that says a lot.
If you're of the mindset that the existence of God is necessary to give human beings value such that they cannot be killed on a whim, then all I can say to you is, "Please do not stop believing in the God of your religion!"
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