Integration is not the Opposite of Segregation

[Rhondazvous]

I want to share my thoughts about the realities of American politics as they have played out over the last 150 years. Here at AF are people from all walks of life and many different perspectives on the topic I’m about to discuss. That is way kewl.

Having said that, let’s begin.

A lot of people think integration is the opposite of segregation. In fact the two have managed to co-exist quite nicely here in the states in a kind of ethnic symbiosis. It is precisely because so many don’t understand what segregation is that integration has been able to destroy the black family and black community as slavery and Jim Crow combined could not.

Definitions:
These definitions are not from Webster but from reality.
Segregation: when an ethnically homogenous community is controlled by forces outside that community.

Integration: when an ethnic group is a guest in the facilities of another ethnic group.

Case in point. At the turn of the 20th century, there was a black community in Tulsa, Oklahoma that was so prosperous it was known as Black Wall Street. The surrounding white community became so alarmed at this prosperity that in 1921 deputized vigilantes attacked, looted and burned Black Wall Street to the ground.

Five years later, residents returned and rebuilt their wealth. The community remained prosperous until integration. Integration did to African Americans what even bombs and fire could not. It made them think they didn’t need to have their own. Somehow, they got this idea that the only reason for having their own was because they’d been barred from what whites have.

From the time I was a child I’ve always heard my mother say “If the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence it’s because the people on the other side are taking care of their grass.” There was a time when blacks took care of their grass. Yes, they complained that the white man’s ice was colder, but that didn’t matter because they had their own ice.

Now, what are your thoughts?

[The Valkyrie]

I think you hit the nail on the head.

That was one of the best things I have read in a long time.

[The Grand Nudger]

Right off the bat, I'd have to say that your definitions are suspect, and plumping them as having come "from reality" doesn't do much to change my opinion.  Particularly, your definition of integration sounds like a description of -failed- integration...which to varying extents integration often does, granted.  Moving on.

Integration didn't do that to black wall street, black consumers did that to black wall street.  Given a choice (that's what -integration- did), they went elsewhere...and it's worth noting that there was alot more "elsewhere" to be had, and that would have inevitably skewed the flow of wealth, for better or for worse.

Finally, the idea that it didn't matter that "white mans ice was colder".... seems to be at odds with the civil rights movement in it's entirety.  It seemed to matter very much that the white mans ice was colder, and that the things allowed to whites were not allowed to blacks. There were black restaurants...those were not the scenes of lunch counter sit ins...and it seemed important to those people regardless of whether or not they had "their own" restaurants.

I'd propose that the problem you're addressing here isn't actually integration at all, but a divestment in local business and communities.  It's a problem faced by any community when the people of that community choose (or in some cases have no choice but) to funnel their resources outside of the community.

[account_inactive]

So you're some sort of black separatist?

[Wyrd of Gawd]

A completely segregated society can't exist in a national economy because, no matter how large the segregated community is, it requires outside income. In order to get that income it must have some integration with the national economy. So a critical mass of the segregated people must be employed in the national economy in order to get money to support the segregated businesses.

[Whateverist]

Integration is not the Opposite of Segregation


Correct. Integration is the opposite of differentiation.

---

All punning aside, I do remember growing up that there was a black fellow who had a weekly show (probably on PBS) on which he discussed with guests the importance of growing black businesses and supporting them. Can't think of his name now. Do you know who I mean?

I'd say that institutional racism has been bad enough for black americans as to make such considerations warranted. But then I'm a bleeding heart liberal elitist, so what do I know?

[vorlon13]

I really enjoyed shopping in a 'gay' business area in Philly some years ago. Didn't occur to me at the time I was financially supporting a form of segregation or apartheid.

And that pride march I was in back in '79, the route went by all the gay bars in Chicago I had ever heard of or been in. I suppose tying up traffic on the Magnificent Mile might have raised more awareness, but we still had 250,000 out and about.

[Rhondazvous]

Yes, there were a lot of things going on. When you have a nationwide phenomenon, it’s never just one cause.

You can call it failed integration or whatever it was it failed the black community. It did not result in an integrated economy. There was money going out but none coming in and that too had several causes.

For one thing, blacks did not understand there’s more to business than the retail store. They opened up little mom and pop stores and restaurants but they didn’t go into manufacturing, wholesale and distribution. So what happened? They had to get their products from Koreans, who over course overcharged them and gave the Korean storeowners discounts. Then the retailers had to overcharge the black consumers just to break even, much less make a profit. “Oh, you call yourself a brother and charging me $6 for a jar of cream I can get from the Koreans for $2!”

Add to that the government is subsidizing Koreans to set up businesses in the black community. The Koreans hate us because that’s what they saw fighting them during the Korean War.

Now we got integration. We can go work for “the man.” But they don’t go out with the idea of using the money to support black communities. Growing up in the ghetto, the black child learns to think of his neighborhood as someplace he must escape. Like a jail. The only income coming in from the outside is when white kids come to buy drugs. Black businesses where doing good when they were supported by policy, but first the Irish and Italian gangs then the government took that over and now it’s called the state lottery. Again money going out, none coming in.

Am I a separatist? Now as long as I been here, why would you even ask that question? If I were, I’d be over at Stormfront raising hell about black power. But I’m not. I’m here with friends whom I love to pieces.

[chimp3]

I think we can achieve color/ ethnic/ gender/ sexual orientation blindness whi!le respecting our historical / cultural / sexual/ uniqueness which adds flavor to the soup in the melting pot. I think we can eat our cake and hold on to it too. It is a worthy goal.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yes, there were a lot of things going on. When you have a nationwide phenomenon, it’s never just one cause.

You can call it failed integration or whatever it was it failed the black community. It did not result in an integrated economy. There was money going out but none coming in and that too had several causes.

Financial services was one area where there was an integrated economy (if there weren't....then the blank banks could not have lost their customers).  An integrated economy does not mean that money flows back to the community.  Frankly, it doesn't do so for "white" banks or communities either.  

For one thing, blacks did not understand there’s more to business than the retail store. They opened up little mom and pop stores and restaurants but they didn’t go into manufacturing, wholesale and distribution.

Well, more than a little bit of that had to do with available capital.  There weren't alot of black people with enough cash to open a factory - mom and pops were more achievable.  Since then, however, all the mom and pops are gone.  White, black, what have you.  It's unfortunate that history left black americans with few opportunities when they became enfranchised, and perhaps even moreso that those opportunities open to them then were, with the full light of history available to us now, very shortly doomed regardless of the ethnicity of the owner.

So what happened? They had to get their products from Koreans, who over course overcharged them and gave the Korean storeowners discounts.  Then the retailers had to overcharge the black consumers just to break even, much less make a profit. “Oh, you call yourself a brother and charging me $6 for a jar of cream I can get from the Koreans for $2!”

Add to that the government is subsidizing Koreans to set up businesses in the black community. The Koreans hate us because that’s what they saw fighting them during the Korean War.

Not a whole lot of koreans where I'm from, whites blacks and hispanics..mostly, so I can't really comment on what the koreans did wherever you're from. Pretty sure a korean who hates americans because of the korean war is going to be an equal opportunity hater with regard to ethnicity. Why did you have to get your products from koreans..btw?

Now we got integration. We can go work for “the man.”

You could always work for "the man"......you just couldn't bank at the same institutions or eat lunch at the same counter or go to the same schools or drink from the same water fountains or marry his son..... 

But they don’t go out with the idea of using the money to support black communities. Growing up in the ghetto, the black child learns to think of his neighborhood as someplace he must escape. Like a jail. The only income coming in from the outside is when white kids come to buy drugs. Black businesses where doing good when they were supported by policy, but first the Irish and Italian gangs then the government took that over and now it’s called the state lottery. Again money going out, none coming in.

I also grew up learning to escape my neighborhood.  Again I;d suggest that your problem lies..not with integration, but with divestment in local communities, wich is endemic to all communities, at present, regardless of ethnicity. 

I've gotta say, these things that you've been laying on the koreans, and the irish, and the italians...they seem more like self inflicted wounds, and nothing at all to do with integration itself. Integration gave black communities choices and oppurtunities they did not previously have. What they did with those, well.