Debate: God Exists

[Drich]

That's not a sophisticated answer. It's like a shortcut to thinking.

Let's make this a debate. Shall we get started?

Let's be speculative as well as using historical evidence. The question isn't asking merely who wrote religions and what their political motives were. The question is multilayered: have they made differences in human history? Without religions, how would the world today be? What impacts, whether positive, negative or both, did they have upon today's world and the future ? So on.

So, remove god/religion from the human condition. How would you classify the psyche of an individual or group that depended on a delusion as an integral part of their existence?

Are you saying you believe that their is or ever has been a segment of society who lives, and is not deluded by an idealism or philosophy that makes of the core of who they are???

Even the snow flakes know better than this. It's easy to point out someone else's 'delusion' but it tends to be more difficult to find and eliminate your own.

[downbeatplumb]

[quote='downbeatplumb' pid='1515208' dateline='1487877987']

let me explain again. The concept of god in every incarnation that has been presented to me I have found to be unconvincing and laughably stupid.
I am always open to new ideas but when all I have seen are vaccuus silly ideas of what god could be I have to say that I don't believe them.

So too thought the world is flat-ers. So too thought man could not fly. So too thought man would die if he exceeded 35mph. I'am asking you what makes you different? not the same as those people

Let me use your analogy of the flat earther back at you.
The belief in a flat earth is a belief held by people despite there being ample evidence to discredit it.
Every argument put forward for god has had to be revised in the face of evidence to the contrary, to the point that now god can only dwell in realms out side of scientific discovery
I find when things are supposedly in the place you cant look their very existence becomes unlikely.
Given that the idea of god seems to me childishly stupid to begin with.

I find the idea of god sillier than the idea of trying cut down a tree with some sloppy jelly or hopping to the moon.

I do of course have an open mind and am willing to be swayed by compelling evidence to the contrary.

I wont hold my breath.

[Drich]

A better question to refine with is, since god is a religiously constructed concept:

Why do religions exist?

How about that?

Hm. I suppose religion started with animism, the belief that animals, plants, objects, and natural phenomena have spirits that do things for reasons. I'd include belief in ghosts and ancestor spirits.

Where the idea came from isn't hard to imagine: dreams and hallucinations. We didn't know what dreams were, we only knew that in our dreams (and sometimes in our fevers or mental illness or psychoactive substances) we might wind up talking to a mountain or our departed grandparents.

Since everything or most everything had a spirit, it only made sense that we could influence them if we could figure out what they wanted. As long as the price wasn't too high, a band of hunter gatherers could take a chance on the person who said they figured out how to get the favor of the spirits, even if all that was really figured out was that people count the hits and forget about the misses, especially if ad hoc explanations for failure worked fine (the people up the river gave more to the spirits than we did!). Such a person didn't have to be dishonest (though knowing what you're doing would probably make you more effective), just fantasy-prone. Being the local shaman could be a matter of survival if you want the band to keep you around even when you're blind or having seizures, or lame, or (especially) hearing voices.

So the shaman sold hope that the hunt would be successful, that the famine would end, that there were reasons that bad and good things happened. The more hand-to-mouth your existence is, the more important it is to have reasons to hope. Bands that thought they had agency over the outcome of events that they couldn't possibly influence through natural means could well have been more successful than bands that didn't.

So the shaman became a fixture of communities (and the rabbi, priest, imam, and preacher). Religion became a way to unify the community, lend authority to laws (the sun god commands it!), and motivate the population (the members of the next village over with the weak defenses are all blasphemers, attack!).

When we developed into nation-states, wars became bloodier and economy-wrecking. It's not like grabbing their cattle and women would make up for the costs, so war became something that you just couldn't afford having in the hands of the priesthood, who might really take it into their heads that war is necessary to crush heretics. In most places, and in the whole developed world, the reigns of power have been pulled from the ranks of the priesthood, as a matter of necessity.

Now, in the majority of the world's countries, religions have to compete with each other and other ideas without (much) special protection from government, in a world where we increasingly understand natural phenomena, the nature of dreams and hallucinations, and have practical ways to influence the natural world that would have seemed god-like to our distant ancestors. Where technology is most developed and government is most neutral on religious matters, religion is in decline. In developed countries we aren't desperate for hope, because the vast majority of us have access to enough food and don't worry about not having enough children live to support us in our old age (of 40 or so). The conditions under which religion grew and flourished have changed. Now the only sense it can be said to be growing is in less-developed countries with high rates of population growth. Almost all the global population growth in the next 40 years will be happening in Africa and South America; and the countries there tend to be highly religious, so the percentage of Christians and Muslims will likely go up on those continents even as they go down in Europe and Australia and North America and Asia.

The best friend of religion is poverty.

That's what the man who has to rationalize God, to explain why others seem to reach out for Him, has to do... So in your mind's eye those who believe are doing so out of petulance and stupidity.


What if... What if just for a moment there was a God? What if There are those who've Actually have seen what they claimed and experience what they have experienced in the way of all the various testimonies?? What if you've just been placed in the dark away from the knowledge of God because this is what you've elected to do?

Could you then maybe see why/how 'religion' ran away from worship of God any other way than how you described it?

[downbeatplumb]

That's what the man who has to rationalize God, to explain why others seem to reach out for Him, has to do... So in your mind's eye those who believe are doing so out of petulance and stupidity.


What if... What if just for a moment there was a God? What if There are those who've Actually have seen what they claimed and experience what they have experienced in the way of all the various testimonies?? What if you've just been placed in the dark away from the knowledge of God because this is what you've elected to do?

Could you then maybe see why/how 'religion' ran away from worship of God any other way than how you described it?

I fail to see why people worship god.
If there was a god. ( I find this extremely unlikely)
Then it would just be a fact.
Perhaps an interesting fact, but just a thing.
I don't feel the need to worship gravity or evolution but both those things are just as much a reason for my existence as a god is supposed to be.
I don't get the mindset of people who need to prostrate themselves to things like that.

[Harry Nevis]

. It's easy to point out someone else's 'delusion' but it tends to be more difficult to find and eliminate your own.

Who should know this better?

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That's what the man who has to rationalize God, to explain why others seem to reach out for Him, has to do... So in your mind's eye those who believe are doing so out of petulance and stupidity.

Don't forget laziness and the chance to look down on others.  And to get attention by claiming to be persecuted.  There are a lot more...


What if... What if just for a moment there was a God? What if There are those who've Actually have seen what they claimed and experience what they have experienced in the way of all the various testimonies?? What if you've just been placed in the dark away from the knowledge of God because this is what you've elected to do?

I've been placed in the dark, and I've ASKED to be placed in the dark?!

"What if" games are for those losing the argument.

Could you then maybe see why/how 'religion' ran away from worship of God any other way than how you described it?

No.

[brewer]

So, remove god/religion from the human condition. How would you classify the psyche of an individual or group that depended on a delusion as an integral part of their existence?

Are you saying you believe that their is or ever has been a segment of society who lives, and is not deluded by an idealism or philosophy that makes of the core of who they are???

Even the snow flakes know better than this. It's easy to point out someone else's 'delusion' but it tends to be more difficult to find and eliminate your own.

Those are not gods/religions. The snow flake jab didn't work. And yes, a god delusion is easy.

[Drich]

Let me use your analogy of the flat earther back at you.

If you were honest you would know despite the long standing tradition of usng this argument to describe a Christian you couldn't in all fairness.

Your next sentence is the reason why:

The belief in a flat earth is a belief held by people despite there being ample evidence to discredit it.

So let me clairify with a simple question. How can you prove something does not exist, when at best all you can demonstrate is that you are not in the presence of said object or person.

Every argument put forward for god has had to be revised in the face of evidence to the contrary, to the point that now god can only dwell in realms out side of scientific discovery

Not much on following simple instruction are ya? If this is the case best you stay away from IKEA.

Arguments for God are not Arguments of God. They are arguments that His instructions work. Truly what vetting process is needed other than to be face to face with God?

I find when things are supposedly in the place you cant look their very existence becomes unlikely.

I find people who have claimed to look and found nothing, and refuse to do anything further have a "phone it in" experience of looking. (Meaning they have no real experience looking beyond their flat piece of earth they are standing on.

Given that the idea of god seems to me childishly stupid to begin with.

very top shelf of you old sport here here!
_or should I say a simple mind moves to dismiss and or trivialize what it can't easily reconcile. (so as to not appear stupid or foolish)

I find the idea of god sillier than the idea of trying cut down a tree with some sloppy jelly or hopping to the moon.

it because you have limited your think to a very small box of currently feesible possibilities. which is why I mock you as an earth is flat-er. Because you literally don't have the ablity to think outside of what you can currently vet.

I do of course have an open mind and am willing to be swayed by compelling evidence to the contrary.

then define 'open mind' because clearly you and I are talking about completely different things!
You have admittly mocked and openly scorned anything outside you personal world view. Like hopping to the moon. Seriously at a point between the earth and the moon given a stable platform and a suit able to sustain your months long journey along with some very good math, you could quite literally make a single hop and collide with the moon.

But tht's not what you were saying specifically right?

THAT'S MY POINT!

A closed mind only look at a problem or situation from a singular direction and is not open to anything else.

An open mind looks to establish several different angles to a given problem. You openly mocked a hop to the moon, I can show you how/where it is theoretically possible. Now putting down what you meant, can you see that your mocking is a direct result on only being able to view 'hopping to the moon' one single way? which means from your singular view point you closed off all other possibilities as being impossible, even if they were possible?

That sport is what makes you closed minded. That is why I keep calling an earth is flat-er. Because you are not willing to look beyond what you think you know.

---

I fail to see why people worship god.

I worship God because I love God.

If there was a god. ( I find this extremely unlikely)
Then it would just be a fact.

Kinda like you mom?
Just everyone has a mom

Perhaps an interesting fact, but just a thing.

did they stop teaching English over there? do you not understand the difference between a person and thing?

I don't get the mindset of people who need to prostrate themselves to things like that.

Well it's only once a year, and men's health and awareness is an important thing. You want to catch potential problem early as their will always be more options and time to deal with whatever may come

[Neo-Scholastic]

The atheist doesn't have to prove a negative.

Do you think that lack of belief in God can be without consequence? Think about what it would mean to lack belief in the Principle of Non-Contradiction or the Law of Identity.

[Astreja]

Do you think that lack of belief in God can be without consequence?

No more consequence than, say, lack of belief that a three-headed dragon is standing out by the curb snacking on the neighbours' cars.

[Neo-Scholastic]

I meant for reasoning about ultimate issues.