Perspectives on Evolution

[bennyboy]

Evolution is one of the areas in science that bother me.  It's not that I don't believe in it-- in fact, I think evolution is a fundamental property of any system with complexity, bonded interactions, and time.

My problem is that when we talk about the evolution of a species, we are talking about a species as though it's a thing.  This strikes me as somewhat mythological: humans cannot evolve (except in a different sense intellectually perhaps), but what it means to be human is slowly shifting-- there's a kind of Archetypal Man who is changing over time, both genetically and memetically (if I can coin that term).


So what, exactly, is changing over time?  Nothing, in fact, is changing, at all, ever, in evolution, any more than colors change from red to blue in a rainbow.  Nothing is developed, and yet it obviously IS developed.

[JackRussell]

Well, it's a stochastic process, so what would you expect to see developed? Also you have to think in terms of deep time.

[TheBeardedDude]

Evolution is one of the areas in science that bother me.  It's not that I don't believe in it-- in fact, I think evolution is a fundamental property of any system with complexity, bonded interactions, and time.

My problem is that when we talk about the evolution of a species, we are talking about a species as though it's a thing.  This strikes me as somewhat mythological: humans cannot evolve (except in a different sense intellectually perhaps), but what it means to be human is slowly shifting-- there's a kind of Archetypal Man who is changing over time, both genetically and memetically (if I can coin that term).


So what, exactly, is changing over time?  Nothing, in fact, is changing, at all, ever, in evolution, any more than colors change from red to blue in a rainbow.  Nothing is developed, and yet it obviously IS developed.

Populations are changing through time. So yes, there is something changing. 

And your issue is apparently more to do with how species are defined, as there are numerous definitions. And even among species definitions, no one really applies them to bacteria or viruses because they evolve too quickly to even assign to species in many cases.

[FatAndFaithless]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'humans cannot evolve'. We are evolving. Every organism is, all the time. It might be hard to comprehend because our human timescales are less than a blink compared to the scales on which evolution works, but changes in allele frequency over time is absolutely happening in humans - and with enough time these changes in allele frequency leads to speciation.

[TheBeardedDude]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'humans cannot evolve'.  We are evolving.  Every organism is, all the time.  It might be hard to comprehend because our human timescales are less than a blink compared to the scales on which evolution works, but changes in allele frequency over time is absolutely happening in humans - and with enough time these changes in allele frequency leads to speciation.

I think there may be some confusion from the OP's perspective about what biological unit is evolving. The individual isn't. So no singular human is evolving, but the population of humans is evolving generation after generation.

[JackRussell]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'humans cannot evolve'.  We are evolving.  Every organism is, all the time.  It might be hard to comprehend because our human timescales are less than a blink compared to the scales on which evolution works, but changes in allele frequency over time is absolutely happening in humans - and with enough time these changes in allele frequency leads to speciation.

Absolutely, better to look at overall primate evolution to understand the scale of change that can occur over time.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Members of a species undergo evolution. Nothing weird about that. Mushrooms don't evolve into Clydesdales. Presidents, maybe.

[FatAndFaithless]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'humans cannot evolve'.  We are evolving.  Every organism is, all the time.  It might be hard to comprehend because our human timescales are less than a blink compared to the scales on which evolution works, but changes in allele frequency over time is absolutely happening in humans - and with enough time these changes in allele frequency leads to speciation.

I think there may be some confusion from the OP's perspective about what biological unit is evolving. The individual isn't. So no singular human is evolving, but the population of humans is evolving generation after generation.

Right.  It's not like a fish gave birth to a squirrel at some point... though I do always find Mr. Garrison's take on evolution funny.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'humans cannot evolve'.  We are evolving.  Every organism is, all the time.  It might be hard to comprehend because our human timescales are less than a blink compared to the scales on which evolution works, but changes in allele frequency over time is absolutely happening in humans - and with enough time these changes in allele frequency leads to speciation.

I think there may be some confusion from the OP's perspective about what biological unit is evolving. The individual isn't. So no singular human is evolving, but the population of humans is evolving generation after generation.

It's individuals who power evolution. A random mutation that gives that individual a slight edge in passing along its genes is a winner. A random mutation that makes its feet weaker is a loser. But "evolution" doesn't care, it's one critter at a time.

[Minimalist]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'humans cannot evolve'.  We are evolving.  Every organism is, all the time.  It might be hard to comprehend because our human timescales are less than a blink compared to the scales on which evolution works, but changes in allele frequency over time is absolutely happening in humans - and with enough time these changes in allele frequency leads to speciation.

I think there may be some confusion from the OP's perspective about what biological unit is evolving. The individual isn't. So no singular human is evolving, but the population of humans is evolving generation after generation.

There's a whole ark-full of morons in Kentucky who can't understand that, either, so he's hardly alone.  The biggest problem with evolution is that it is hard and you have to do the work.  The theory is not designed for facile shits who want to quote a bible verse and think they have an "answer."  Have to give the OP credit for thinking about it.