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Convert me if you can
#21
RE: Convert me if you can
(December 31, 2010 at 11:48 am)Regens Küchl Wrote: I have found an argument for Islam that in this case I will copy to let you read it. Mohammed (blessed be his name) succeeded to let preserve the true words of god unfalsified until today.

That the Koran has been better persevered (and there is some doubt about this but that's another discussion thread on the Islam forum so let that go for now) is a lot more easily attributed to the fact that Islam is a significantly younger sect, did not have the difficulty of translating their scripture into other languages and had a more determined goal of preserving the original book. Although I am role-playing a seeker of the right religion, I still will apply Occam's Razor and not attribute to divine intercession what could be easily explained by human efforts.

Quote:And, if you will so, all the great prophets are opposed to normal people who are not neccessarily great.

So "great" is internalized into the definition of the word "prophet", just as "dark" might be to the color "black"? Fine. Then it is a tautology to call Jesus a "great prophet".

Quote:Jesus convinced the people rightfully that Allah wants not only Jews but all people to serve him.
That was a enormous success.
It is another story that later humans perverted parts of his message to things like the christian Trinity dogma.

Jesus' followers prayed to him and thought of him as an intercessor to God. A more spectacular failure for the jealous YHWH-Allah would be impossible to imagine short of the Christians all becoming Satanists.

The second half of your statement invokes the dreamscape also used by Protestant Christians that there was a pure form of Jesus' teachings that were corrupted by a later Catholic-Trinitarian teaching. Actual research into early Christianity indicates that both claims are the stuff of fantasy created to justify their own religion, nothing more. While it is true that there were non-Trinitarian Christians, and Muslim apologists will spuriously point to them as Islamic, in fact, all the early Christians regarded Jesus as an intercessor divine agent of some sort, whether an angel, an apparition of God or a higher god. None of these early Christianities are consistent with Islamic teaching nor is there any indication that Jesus declared himself a forerunner of a prophet to come.

Quote:About success I wrote above, and this particular pretty poertry is also the truest word of god. But you wont see that without reading it with an open heart.

The Koran, at least the English translation, strikes me as being the inconsistent ravings of a madman but let that go. Shakespeare wrote pretty poetry as well. That doesn't prove he was a divine agent. This line of argument is completely irrelevant even if it were true.

Quote:Islam had no holy Inquisition and was historically more tolerant to unbelievers than christianity.


That's the propaganda. Google a news search on Islamic persecution of Hindus, Jews, Christians and atheists as well as the very institutional laws of Sharia regarding the Jizat tax for the other religions (pardon my spelling if that's not the right way) as well as "anti-blasphemy" laws and I think you'll find the claim quickly collapses under scrutiny.

So in review, do we have any arguments aside from:

1. Success of Islam
2. Pretty poetry

?
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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#22
RE: Convert me if you can
(December 28, 2010 at 10:11 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: And again, I find it revealing that Muslims keep coming back to the Koran as proof of the Koran's claims. Even Christians try to come up with scraps of outside, corroborating evidence. Surely the Muslims would if it were available. The fact that they don't suggests that the Koran has ZERO corroborating evidence for all Muhammad's claims.

So, what you're saying is that the Christians use outside corroborating evidence in addition to the Bible whereas the Muslims only use the Quran itself. But that is actually incorrect. Why? Because in Islam there is something called hadith, which are basically narrations concerning the words and deeds of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in regard to Islamic matters. The authenticity of hadiths are strengthened by a sound chain of narration and by numerous, corroborating reports. The hadiths are an important part of preserving the teachings of Islam (in addition to the Quran).

(December 30, 2010 at 11:12 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Islam seems far more crude for reasons I've already discussed.

And this reveals a contradiction between two of your arguments on Islam and Christianity, which are:

1. Islam seems to be far more crude than Christianity for several reasons.
2. That there's not a dime's worth of difference between Islam and Christianity, which you have clearly said in this thread.

Also, you're just repeating the same thing that Islam has no substance whatsoever except that a guy (Muhammad) comes along in a different country and many years later after Jesus to claim that "God spoke to me," as if this is something different from what was said by Jesus or any of the other prophets. Here's what you what you said in a different thread:

(November 23, 2010 at 8:06 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Islam is a bit more crude. I can sum it up in seven words: "Some guy claimed God spoke to him".

Again, the "God spoke to me" argument of yours can also be applied to Jesus and all the other prophets of the Abrahamic religions, not only Muhammad (pbuh). Therefore, it's not a rational thing to single out only Muhammad from the other prophets in such a manner as to justify that this is what makes Islam a little more "crude" than Christianity, which is obviously wrong because that's an over-simplification of Islam, and secondly, the same thing can be said for Christianity also (that "some guy claimed that God spoke to him"). How is that any different from Islam?

As I already mentioned before, there are many authenticated hadiths (or narrations) from the mouths of various people who lived during Muhammad's own lifetime which serve as eye-witness accounts of his actions, character, and his teachings. Furthermore, I can make a whole topic on the science of hadith collection and authentication if you want me to.

The point is that Islam is really not that crude as you're making it sound like. I could easily discredit Christianity based on the same logic that you're using to discredit Islam.

(December 30, 2010 at 11:12 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: So the arguments for Islam so far include:

1. Success (same could be said for Christianity)
2. Oooooh, pretty poetry.

And what do you have for Christianity?

Btw, let's not forget that you were role-playing in which of the two religions (Islam and Christianity) is more likely to be the right religion:

(December 28, 2010 at 4:20 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Let's pretend that I've decided I need religion in my life. I've decided to choose between Christianity and Islam.

But, I still haven't heard of any logical arguments on why Christianity has a greater chance of being the true religion than Islam, or more specifically, why the Bible is more likely to be the word of God than the Quran. And I already dismantled your "Islam is more crude than Christianity" argument.

If you still disagree with my comments, then I think you should make a separate thread so that you can clearly and intelligibly outline all the reasons on why you think that Christianity has more authenticity than Islam by comparing the two religions for each of the arguments that you raise. But you probably won't do it, because you already said that there's "not a dime's worth of difference" between Islam and Christianity, right? It wouldn't a make a lot of sense to choose Christianity over Islam as the right religion if that's the case.
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#23
RE: Convert me if you can
Quote:But, I still haven't heard of any logical arguments on why Christianity has a greater chance of being the true religion than Islam,

Me neither. In fact, I've seen no evidence to show that any of the Abrahamic faiths are based on anything other than the same mythology of a tribe of bronze age goat herders.

My conclusion is that neither religion has any claim to credibility,let alone any absolute truth that I've ever seen. Yes, I've read the Qur'an, and and was struck by how much of it was lifted from the Torah.

The Hadith is not claimed to be revealed truth,and does not carry the same authority in Islam as the Qur'an.

A skeptic, I reject all sacred books as evidence.The reason for my position is the claims of revealed truths are based on an unsupported claim: The existence of a god to reveal truths.

I have no issue with people believing whatever they wish,with or without evidence.I do have a problem when anyone makes unsupported truth claims in lieu of a rational argument. Please do try to refrain from making fatuous claims based on the mythology of your religion,there's a good chap. Either show me some evidence or stop wasting my time.
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#24
RE: Convert me if you can
(January 1, 2011 at 8:48 am)Rayaan Wrote: Because in Islam there is something called hadith, which are basically narrations concerning the words and deeds of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in regard to Islamic matters. The authenticity of hadiths are strengthened by a sound chain of narration and by numerous, corroborating reports. The hadiths are an important part of preserving the teachings of Islam (in addition to the Quran).

I'm not sure the Hadiths are universally accepted as authentic or canonical by Muslims. I've debated with some who accept some of the Hadiths but not others and one who rejects them all as folklore, that only the Koran can be used to debate Islam. I will grant that none of these are Imams or Islamic scholars so perhaps they are just heterodox Muslims. I'll just pose the question are you certain that the Hadiths are so universally accepted as true by mainstream Muslims?

If that's the case, I'd consider it to be the analog to the Book of Acts of the Apostles, which has been incorporated into the Bible as canon but nonetheless serves the same purpose. This argument's a wash.

Quote:And this reveals a contradiction between two of your arguments on Islam and Christianity, which are:

1. Islam seems to be far more crude than Christianity for several reasons.
2. That there's not a dime's worth of difference between Islam and Christianity

The first contrasts the case for Islam with the case for Christianity.
The second deals with what these religions preach, represent, the nature of their god, the nature of their afterlife, the nature of their moral code, and what they do to the people and nations that adopt them.
One is about whether or not its true.
The second is about what these religions are.
Clear?

Quote:Again, the "God spoke to me" argument of yours can also be applied to Jesus and all the other prophets of the Abrahamic religions, not only Muhammad (pbuh). Therefore, it's not a rational thing to single out only Muhammad from the other prophets in such a manner as to justify that this is what makes Islam a little more "crude" than Christianity, which is obviously wrong because that's an over-simplification of Islam, and secondly, the same thing can be said for Christianity also (that "some guy claimed that God spoke to him"). How is that any different from Islam?

The debate between whether my role-playing self should hypothetically convert to Christianity or Islam is over what Jesus was. Both religions agree that Jesus spoke to God and carried a message of revelation to the people. The disagreement is over whether he was a prophet and forerunner of Muhammad or whether he was an intercessor with God. The Christians have a slick package of supposed eye-witnesses and the traditions of a church established by Jesus and his apostles and disciples who would have personally known him or lived within his lifetime. Muslims have some guy who came along much later who wouldn't have known squat about Jesus except what he was told from the very people who he claims got it all wrong. Clear?

Quote:As I already mentioned before, there are many authenticated hadiths (or narrations) from the mouths of various people who lived during Muhammad's own lifetime which serve as eye-witness accounts of his actions, character, and his teachings. Furthermore, I can make a whole topic on the science of hadith collection and authentication if you want me to.

Fine but do any of these eye-witness accounts offer any testimony about Jesus? Again, it's about who knew Jesus better.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Reply
#25
RE: Convert me if you can
Quote:But, I still haven't heard of any logical arguments on why Christianity has a greater chance of being the true religion than Islam


Neither have I....however the fact that xtianity is a pile of bullshit does not mean islam is "true." Rather it suggests that islam - and all religions - are piles of bullshit also.

You are desperate to believe Rayaan. Only when you lose that desperation will you be able to see clearly.
Reply
#26
RE: Convert me if you can
(December 31, 2010 at 12:28 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:
(December 31, 2010 at 11:48 am)Regens Küchl Wrote: I have found an argument for Islam that in this case I will copy to let you read it. Mohammed (blessed be his name) succeeded to let preserve the true words of god unfalsified until today.
That the Koran has been better persevered (and there is some doubt about this but that's another discussion thread on the Islam forum so let that go for now) is a lot more easily attributed to the fact that Islam is a significantly younger sect, did not have the difficulty of translating their scripture into other languages and had a more determined goal of preserving the original book. Although I am role-playing a seeker of the right religion, I still will apply Occam's Razor and not attribute to divine intercession what could be easily explained by human efforts.
Please do not dispose the child along with the bathtub. You are right with this reasons playing a role for the excellent preservance of Allahs word.
Mohammed (blessed be his name) was the last prophet, so Islam of course is younger. Arabic was accepted by Allah as the best form of his word, because it is a beautiful and living language used in a great part of the world. Because of the Quran being the true word, the followers were extemely and rightfully determined to preserve it.
All true, but all this is rather more evidence for Islam and not against it.

(December 31, 2010 at 12:28 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:
Quote:And, if you will so, all the great prophets are opposed to normal people who are not neccessarily great.

So "great" is internalized into the definition of the word "prophet", just as "dark" might be to the color "black"? Fine. Then it is a tautology to call Jesus a "great prophet".
And so you must admit that it was wrong to say he was no great prophet, as it would be wrong to say a darkness was not black.

(December 31, 2010 at 12:28 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:
Quote:Jesus convinced the people rightfully that Allah wants not only Jews but all people to serve him.
That was a enormous success.
It is another story that later humans perverted parts of his message to things like the christian Trinity dogma.

Jesus' followers prayed to him and thought of him as an intercessor to God. A more spectacular failure for the jealous YHWH-Allah would be impossible to imagine short of the Christians all becoming Satanists.

The second half of your statement invokes the dreamscape also used by Protestant Christians that there was a pure form of Jesus' teachings that were corrupted by a later Catholic-Trinitarian teaching. Actual research into early Christianity indicates that both claims are the stuff of fantasy created to justify their own religion, nothing more. While it is true that there were non-Trinitarian Christians, and Muslim apologists will spuriously point to them as Islamic, in fact, all the early Christians regarded Jesus as an intercessor divine agent of some sort, whether an angel, an apparition of God or a higher god. None of these early Christianities are consistent with Islamic teaching nor is there any indication that Jesus declared himself a forerunner of a prophet to come.
HahWink here again I have to break to you that the fact that Jesus was highly misinterpreted and on him was based an incorrect cult (Xians), is not an argument against Islam but is a massive argument for Islam.
Besides: It was not the prophet Jesus fault, but the fault of people that he was misinterpreted and not all Xians got it totally wrong. Before Mohammed(blessed be his name) great parts of the ancient world and some emperors were arian, whose concept of Jesus was not so far from the muslim concept of a great prophet. Here is the arian concept:
The Arian concept of Christ is that the Son of God did not always exist, but was created by—and is therefore distinct from and inferior to—God the Father.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

Also on the right path partly were the nestorians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism

(December 31, 2010 at 12:28 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:
Quote:About success I wrote above, and this particular pretty poertry is also the truest word of god. But you wont see that without reading it with an open heart.

The Koran, at least the English translation, strikes me as being the inconsistent ravings of a madman but let that go. Shakespeare wrote pretty poetry as well. That doesn't prove he was a divine agent. This line of argument is completely irrelevant even if it were true.
Not the poetry, but the message should you let enter your heart. And in the right translation, and one with added comments by experts.
I am sure that an extremelybad arabic translation could fatally destroy the works of Shakespeare. Destroy the poetry as well as the philosophical message within the works.

The same (other way around) goes for Quran. And I meant that you, reading the right Quran with open heart, will feel the rightfullness of the message therein, as you would feel it, lets say, by reading the words of a great noble philosoph.
This is about the message and stands aside from "pretty poetry" or not.
(December 31, 2010 at 12:28 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:
Quote:Islam had no holy Inquisition and was historically more tolerant to unbelievers than christianity.


That's the propaganda. Google a news search on Islamic persecution of Hindus, Jews, Christians and atheists as well as the very institutional laws of Sharia regarding the Jizat tax for the other religions (pardon my spelling if that's not the right way) as well as "anti-blasphemy" laws and I think you'll find the claim quickly collapses under scrutiny.
At last once muslims were settled they were more tolerant than xians.
You cannot deny the fact that while the xian west sank down in his dark middle ages, suppressed and destroyed scientific advance as well as many early scientists, the islamic orient came to blossom in regard of culture and sciences.
Because it was born in the orient even the names iences like algebra or alchemy(mother of modern chemistry) remain arabic until today And chemistry comes from arabic chemi = black.
Even our numbers 1, 2, 3, and on are arabic.
(December 31, 2010 at 12:28 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: So in review, do we have any arguments aside from:

1. Success of Islam
2. Pretty poetry

?
Yes, as I explained aboveClap
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#27
RE: Convert me if you can
Well then if we're talking about the past we can talk about the present, in the hands of the west science flourished and fills gaps that were filled early with god nowadays(due to america) is moving more and more backwards, maybe they are passing trough the islamic dark ages, hope it lasts shorter than the Christian dark ages.
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#28
RE: Convert me if you can
(January 2, 2011 at 4:36 am)Regens Küchl Wrote: Please do not dispose the child along with the bathtub. You are right with this reasons playing a role for the excellent preservance of Allahs word.
Mohammed (blessed be his name) was the last prophet, so Islam of course is younger. Arabic was accepted by Allah as the best form of his word, because it is a beautiful and living language used in a great part of the world. Because of the Quran being the true word, the followers were extemely and rightfully determined to preserve it.
All true, but all this is rather more evidence for Islam and not against it.

I don't follow your logic here at all. Can you rephrase?

Quote:And so you must admit that it was wrong to say he was no great prophet, as it would be wrong to say a darkness was not black.

I admit that you've defined all prophets are automatically "great", a definition I don't hold. I personally use the word "great" in measuring the achievement of results.

Quote:HahWink here again I have to break to you that the fact that Jesus was highly misinterpreted and on him was based an incorrect cult (Xians), is not an argument against Islam but is a massive argument for Islam.

I don't follow. How exactly?

Quote:Besides: It was not the prophet Jesus fault, but the fault of people that he was misinterpreted and not all Xians got it totally wrong.

A teacher shares responsibility if most of his class fails to learn.

Quote:Before Mohammed(blessed be his name) great parts of the ancient world and some emperors were arian, whose concept of Jesus was not so far from the muslim concept of a great prophet. Here is the arian concept:

Arian Christianity is a 3rd century variant on the Christian theme, some 200 years after Paul led the Christians astray. I therefore don't see how this is relevant. Even if it were, Arius taught that Jesus was an angel or lesser god, sent by God to be the intercessor. This is not consistent with Islamic teaching.

Quote:Not the poetry, but the message should you let enter your heart.

This argument is a wash with the Christian "Holy Spirit" arguments re: the Bible.

Quote:At last once muslims were settled they were more tolerant than xians.

That's a low bar.

Quote:You cannot deny the fact that while the xian west sank down in his dark middle ages, suppressed and destroyed scientific advance as well as many early scientists, the islamic orient came to blossom in regard of culture and sciences.

And as Ash has pointed out, the Christian and Islamic world switched places since. It seems the more devoutly religious a society is, the more backward.

This, btw, is what I mean by "not a dime's worth of difference". Islam and Christianity have the same effect on society where they have the power to. The marketing may be a bit more crude with the former but the results are the same once the package is purchased.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Reply
#29
RE: Convert me if you can
(December 28, 2010 at 4:20 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Let's pretend that I've decided I need religion in my life. I've decided to choose between Christianity and Islam. The Christians have made their sales pitch to me. Now those Muslim posters on this board can make yours. What evidence or arguments does Islam have to support it?

What seems to set Islam apart from Christianity is the question of what Jesus was (prophet or divine intercessor). The Christians have made their case to me which includes:

* Supposed "eye witness accounts"
* Supposed "historical documents"
* A church established by the apostles and disciples that knew Jesus or lived in his lifetime.

What Islam seems to have is:

* Some guy who came along several hundred years later, who lived in a different country, who claims that he knows what Jesus really said and taught better than the people he heard about Jesus from, the very people who he claims got it all wrong.

Special pleading taken to a whole new level.

Now I'm not endorsing Christianity by a long shot here. I've torn apart all the supposed "evidence" for Christianity but at least they give me a case to tear apart. I can at least understand how the unwary or uninformed might get taken in by the slick packaging. Islam seems to have no substance whatsoever except for "some guy says 'nuh-uh'"

What would be your sales pitch to convince me that Muhammad knew Jesus better than the Christians?

What you're asking is pointless. You're pretending to be interested in something when really you're not interested. What is your true aim here?
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#30
RE: Convert me if you can
What makes you think he's not interested? Because you don't agree with him?
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