Convert me if you can

[DeistPaladin]

Let's pretend that I've decided I need religion in my life. I've decided to choose between Christianity and Islam. The Christians have made their sales pitch to me. Now those Muslim posters on this board can make yours. What evidence or arguments does Islam have to support it?

What seems to set Islam apart from Christianity is the question of what Jesus was (prophet or divine intercessor). The Christians have made their case to me which includes:

* Supposed "eye witness accounts"
* Supposed "historical documents"
* A church established by the apostles and disciples that knew Jesus or lived in his lifetime.

What Islam seems to have is:

* Some guy who came along several hundred years later, who lived in a different country, who claims that he knows what Jesus really said and taught better than the people he heard about Jesus from, the very people who he claims got it all wrong.

Special pleading taken to a whole new level.

Now I'm not endorsing Christianity by a long shot here. I've torn apart all the supposed "evidence" for Christianity but at least they give me a case to tear apart. I can at least understand how the unwary or uninformed might get taken in by the slick packaging. Islam seems to have no substance whatsoever except for "some guy says 'nuh-uh'"

What would be your sales pitch to convince me that Muhammad knew Jesus better than the Christians?

[Rayaan]

Let's pretend that I've decided I need religion in my life. I've decided to choose between Christianity and Islam. The Christians have made their sales pitch to me. Now those Muslim posters on this board can make yours. What evidence or arguments does Islam have to support it?

Well, here's one of them: Conclusive Proof that the Quran is the word of God

[DeistPaladin]

Let's pretend that I've decided I need religion in my life. I've decided to choose between Christianity and Islam. The Christians have made their sales pitch to me. Now those Muslim posters on this board can make yours. What evidence or arguments does Islam have to support it?

Well, here's one of them: Conclusive Proof that the Quran is the word of God

Thanks for the prompts reply. I'm reading the site as I have time. So far, these are arguments I've heard before and they're massively underwhelming. Consider this gem:

Naturally if any man claimed to be a messenger the people would not believe him simply on his word. Most people would harbour a healthy amount of scepticism to the claim.

One would certainly hope so but neither Muslim claims nor modern events bare this out. According to Muslim claims, Paul was a false prophet. Not more than a few years after Jesus flew into the sky, Paul successfully convinced his followers to corrupt the teachings of Jesus and worship him as a divine intercessor. According to Muslim claims, the followers of Jesus were easily misled.

In modern times, we see all manner of cults, from David Koresh to L Ron Hubbard, all making fantastic claims of divinity or revelation with no proof. They make the most ridiculous claims and yet they gather massive followings.

...continuing to read as I have time...

---

Finished. Not surprisingly, it didn't get any better.

The argument from that site underscores what I've written, that the Muslims have no evidence outside the Koran. The Koran itself is thus presented as the evidence for itself, using the laughably faulty logic of "it's such beautiful poetry, how could it not be divine?"

Seriously?

Summary: "Wooooooooh, pretty poetry, man. It's like gotta be divine and stuff."

That's it? That's your sales pitch?

If this is the best apologetic site you can offer me, than I can only take this as a tacit admission that the Muslims have ZERO corroborating evidence to offer.

Why does anyone even take this religion seriously, aside from all the terrorism and brutality?

[Rayaan]

Actually there's a lot more to it than your brief summary of the Quran.

See the following debate from 13:44 to 23:15 seconds (and watch the other parts as well if you're interested). There are a total of 8 parts in the debate and I've seen all of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYDWUo_YP_c

[annatar]

Here is a default converting strategy of muslims;
+Allah is real!
-How?
+It is!
-But how do you know that?
+Can't you see it, it's obvious!!
-What is obvious?
+Now you're mocking my beliefs!
-Wha.? how?
+Best case: okay you're blind and I won't waste my time with you anymore.
+Worst case: click, Boom!
@DeistPaladin,
Dude they can't convert you because your eyes and ears are sealed by allah. Not that they have childish arguments or a contradictory book or just baseless assertions. Its just allah doesn't want you to believe.
Do you know why? Because he promised someone(probably himself) that he will fill the hell with people.
I guess the joke's on you...

Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.
Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.
baqarah 6-7(2:6,7)

And We have placed over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness. And when you mention your Lord alone in the Qur'an, they turn back in aversion.
Isra 46.(17:46)

And if we had willed, We could have given every soul its guidance, but the word from Me will come into effect [that] "I will surely fill Hell with jinn and people all together.(32:13)

[DeistPaladin]

Actually there's a lot more to it than your brief summary of the Quran.

See the following debate from 13:44 to 23:15 seconds

Done. I'm having trouble understanding what you're even presenting as evidence here. Muhammad wrote beautiful poetry and he was illiterate? Others would have cried "false" if the Koran wasn't true? Is this the best you can offer?

I hear the same things from Christians. Skeptics would have cried "false" if the early apostles and disciples had lied. It conjures up a fantasy that there were commando fact checkers operating close surveillance on rabbinic writings and that their objections would have somehow survived to the present day, carefully preserved by invisible pixies.

But let all of that go and ask how an illiterate man, assuming he was, could write poetry. Is that possible?

Is it possible that a man with no training in music as a child, who never even started learning to play an instrument until age 19, who had only minimal training in music at all, could write symphonies? He can barely play out the melodies on a synth, line by line until it duplicated an orchestra, but wrote what he could clearly hear in his head? And the music would remind people of such greats as Mozart or Vivaldi. It's a miracle, right? How else could a man who can't play an instrument create such music? If he (I) were a prophet, it would be pronounced a sign of God's validation!

Actually, it's my story and there are more worldly explanations to choose from. I'm passionate about music? I have a knack for composition? I've listened to enough that I've subconsciously absorbed it? There are many different explanations as to how it's possible without invoking God or even suggesting that it couldn't be duplicated by another. If I were to claim to speak to God and offer this to you as "proof", you would never accept it. You understand, I hope, why your "proof" is really unconvincing to me?

And again, I find it revealing that Muslims keep coming back to the Koran as proof of the Koran's claims. Even Christians try to come up with scraps of outside, corroborating evidence. Surely the Muslims would if it were available. The fact that they don't suggests that the Koran has ZERO corroborating evidence for all Muhammad's claims.

---

Dude they can't convert you because your eyes and ears are sealed by allah. Not that they have childish arguments or a contradictory book or just baseless assertions. Its just allah doesn't want you to believe.
Do you know why? Because he promised someone(probably himself) that he will fill the hell with people.
I guess the jokes on you...

Allah is the Biblical god YHWH. There are similar passages in the Bible. It must be there for the believers to rely on when stubborn skeptics keep asking for that pesky evidence.

[Regens Küchl]

Hi, let me join in . Role playing is fun . I will pretend to try to convert you to Islam .
A whole new Job for a polytheist like me

But first I have to add something to your list.

Let's pretend that I've decided I need religion in my life. I've decided to choose between Christianity and Islam. The Christians have made their sales pitch to me. Now those Muslim posters on this board can make yours. What evidence or arguments does Islam have to support it?

What seems to set Islam apart from Christianity is the question of what Jesus was (prophet or divine intercessor). The Christians have made their case to me which includes:

* Supposed "eye witness accounts"
* Supposed "historical documents"
* A church established by the apostles and disciples that knew Jesus or lived in his lifetime.

I (as Xian) would add the thousands of fullfilled prophesies of the bible.

What Islam seems to have is:

* Some guy who came along several hundred years later, who lived in a different country, who claims that he knows what Jesus really said and taught better than the people he heard about Jesus from, the very people who he claims got it all wrong.

Special pleading taken to a whole new level.

I (as muslim) would add the miracles of the quran, scientific wisdom that only Allah could have told Mohammed.

Now I'm not endorsing Christianity by a long shot here. I've torn apart all the supposed "evidence" for Christianity but at least they give me a case to tear apart. I can at least understand how the unwary or uninformed might get taken in by the slick packaging. Islam seems to have no substance whatsoever except for "some guy says 'nuh-uh'"

What would be your sales pitch to convince me that Muhammad knew Jesus better than the Christians?

Mohammed had his wisdom from Allah, who of course knew the prophet Jesus better than humans.

At first I would like you to consider this : Not once in the NT does Jesus say that he is God

[Zen Badger]

Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.
Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.
baqarah 6-7(2:6,7)

And We have placed over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness. And when you mention your Lord alone in the Qur'an, they turn back in aversion.
Isra 46.(17:46)

And if we had willed, We could have given every soul its guidance, but the word from Me will come into effect [that] "I will surely fill Hell with jinn and people all together.(32:13)

So we as non-muslims are being condemned to eternal fire by allah because of what allah has done to us in the first place.

This is logically consistent with the muslim practice of stoning a woman to death for adultery after she has been raped.

[Edwardo Piet]

We've had a lot of threads like this now!!

[DeistPaladin]

Mohammed had his wisdom from Allah, who of course knew the prophet Jesus better than humans.

(Accepting this as role-playing)

This is the "power of God card" which the believer can opt to play as a last resort when all other options are gone. The act of playing it is a tacit admission that their story is so odd, so against all evidence, that it defies any worldly explanation.

Beyond the problems of Occam's Razor and Hitchen's Razor ("that which can be proposed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"), it opens a can of worms for the theist. If you suppose that a deity whispers to one mortal regarding the truth about Jesus, why not a more influential one? Would a Roman Emperor or a Pope would be a better choice than some guy in a totally different country?

At first I would like you to consider this : Not once in the NT does Jesus say that he is God

Actually yes he does.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 10:38 The Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:9 He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed

Revelation 1:17 Fear not; I am the first and the last.

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega

Muslims, put down the Bible. It shouldn't be surprising that someone else's scripture is written to support someone else's religion.