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padraic

@Tracy;

Argument from incredulity is a common logical fallacy. A graphic example is the claim Egyptian pyramids could not have been built by the Egyptians alone.The pyramid is neither an advanced nor sophisticated design.In fact it's the simplest design for a massive building. (ask an engineer)

I debunked nothing, I simply asked you for some evidence for your claims. However,I present the following for you to consider:

I don't believe in aliens due to lack of evidence. I make no claims about their existence, accepting it's possible,even likely. I'm unable to believe in aliens because to do so would require a 'leap of faith. (forming a belief without evidence)THAT would be a superstition,just like religion..

Background:

I first became aware of the 'God is an alien' notion in1970,when read a 1956 article by ' a Russian scientist'; who examined the book of Ezechiel,claiming it describes a spaceship and space travel. Much later ,a NASA scientist wrote "Spaceships of Ezekiel"

However,the father of that particular form of crackpottery was Erich Von Daniken who began a veritable industry in such books with "Chariots Of The Gods? Unsolved Mysteries From The Past". I read that ,everything else he wrote and literally dozens of other books in the genre.(including "Morning Of The Magicians" the book from which he stole a lot of his ideas) I even went to the trouble of checking a lot of his references. Not ONE stood up to more than the most casual scrutiny.

My experience was nearly 40 years ago. The same drivel keeps popping up with monotonous regularity,with a new crop of ignorant and gullible people. That explains,but does not excuse my testiness.There IS no excuse. I'm a cranky old cunt who doesn't suffer fools.

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References:

Quote:Argument from incredulity / Lack of imagination

Arguments from incredulity take the form:

1. P is too incredible (or I cannot imagine how P could possibly be true); therefore P must be false.
2. It is obvious that P (or I cannot imagine how P could possibly be false) therefore P must be true.

These arguments are similar to arguments from ignorance in that they too ignore and do not properly eliminate the possibility that something can be both incredible and still be true, or appear to be obvious and yet still be false.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_fr...magination

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Quote:The Spaceships of Ezekiel (1974) is a book by Josef F. Blumrich written while he was chief of NASA's systems layout branch of the program development office at the Marshall Space Flight Center.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] In it he asserts that Ezekiel's account in the Bible was not a description of a meeting with God in a prophetic vision, but a description of several encounters with ancient astronauts in a shuttlecraft from another planet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spaceships_of_Ezekiel

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Quote:Chariots of the Gods? Unsolved Mysteries of the Past (German: Erinnerungen an die Zukunft: Ungelöste Rätsel der Vergangenheit) is a book written in 1968 by Erich von Däniken. It involves the hypothesis that the technologies and religions of many ancient civilizations were given to them by ancient astronauts who were welcomed as gods.

Quote:Response

Most scientists and historians have rejected his ideas, claiming that the book's conclusions were based on faulty, pseudoscientific evidence, some of which was later demonstrated to be fraudulent and/or fabricated, and under illogical premises. For example, Ronald Story wrote a book rebutting Däniken's ideas in 1976 titled The Space Gods Revealed. A similar internationally bestselling book, entitled Crash Go The Chariots by Clifford Wilson, appeared in 1972.

A 2004 article in Skeptic magazine[1] states that von Däniken plagiarized many of the book's concepts from The Morning of the Magicians, that this book in turn was heavily influenced by the Cthulhu Mythos, and that the core of the ancient astronaut theory originates in H. P. Lovecraft's short stories "The Call of Cthulhu" and "At the Mountains of Madness".
The iron pillar of Delhi, erected by Chandragupta II the Great, which Von Däniken claimed did not rust.

One artifact offered as evidence in the book has been disclaimed by Däniken himself. Chariots asserts that a non-rusting iron pillar in India was evidence of extraterrestrial influence, but Däniken admitted in a Playboy interview (vol.21, no.8, 1974) that the pillar was man-made and that as far as supporting his theories goes "we can forget about this iron thing." However, neither this nor any other discredited evidence has been removed from subsequent reprints of Chariots of the Gods.

One book commonly cited in support of von Däniken is The Spaceships of Ezekiel by former NASA design engineer Josef F. Blumrich, who also wrote a summary article, "The spaceships of the prophet Ezekiel".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_of_the_gods

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Quote:The Morning of the Magicians was first published as Le Matin des magiciens. Written by Louis Pauwels and Jacques Bergier in 1960, it became a best seller, first in French, then translated into English in 1963 as The Dawn of Magic, and later released in the United States as The Morning of the Magicians. A German edition was published with the title Aufbruch ins dritte Jahrtausend (Departure into the third Millennium).

In a general overview of the occult, the book speculates on a wide variety of Forteana, mysticism and conspiracy theories such as secret societies, ancient prophesies, alchemical transmutation, a giant race that once ruled the Earth, and the Nazca lines".[1] It also includes what have been called "largely silly" speculations such as Nazi occultism and supernatural phenomena conspiracy theory that the Vril were the precursor to the Nazi party.[2]

The book has been credited with playing a significant role in bringing these kinds of ideas into the common awareness, spurring a revival of interest in the occult during the 1960s and 70s, and being a forerunner to the popularization of New Age ideas.[3] In a 2004 article in Skeptic Magazine[4], Jason Colavito said that the book was substantially inspired by the horror fiction of H. P. Lovecraft, and was a central influence for Erich von Däniken's books on ancient astronauts. Notably short on references or sources, the book has also come under criticism.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_of_the_Magicians

**thesummerqueen**

(28th January 2011 12:57)padraic Wrote: I'm a cranky old cunt who doesn't suffer fools.

Hmmm...how do you put up with me then?

By the way, while I can't remember the name of the particular show I'm thinking of, fortunately very nice documentaries about ancient Egypt (while we're on that example) DO exist and more and more evidence is being uncovered that gives insight into the lives and deaths of the workers who built these structures (how come I never hear that the aliens 'helped' build the temples in Egypt as well?).

I want to say it was Kenneth Feder (but I could be wrong) who said in an interview that the question gets raised as to why then we don't see "blueprints" for the pyramids - wouldn't that suggest the knowledge came from elsewhere? More, he said, that it suggests they kept their building secrets...secret. Most of what gets uncovered in archaeology is 'garbage'. Would we just leave our nuclear warhead plans laying around?

Also, having worked in the construction industry and having several friends who still are in it, I can tell you that anyone well-trained in construction doesn't need a 'permanent' stone-cutting meant to last for the ages telling them how to do it. They look at a structure and have experiential knowledge of how it was built and the engineering principles behind it. This is how men in the Renaissance were able to go back to the structures of Greek and Rome and resurrect building styles. It's how my friend Scott walks around a house a couple times, makes a few sketches, and within a couple weeks has an addition made.

No one person had knowledge of all aspects of the pyramid building - you had "guilds" that specialized just like you have today, and they had 'masters' who contributed to the whole. Each piece of wisdom builds upon the other, just as each stone did. No need for little green men to come down and give them their two cents.

Plus...if anyone DID tell us how to build pyramids... we didn't listen very well. There are definite 'mistakes' in Egypt proving someone didn't know what the hell they were doing (a problem that remains in construction today... [eye roll]). The 'bent' pyramid is the first anyone should look at.

muhtesem insan

Stop hitting guy is dead. Smile

Minimalist

Quote:And anyone who believes that human beings are so almighty that we are the only ones like us in the entire vast universe

That's not really the issue, Tracy. The issue is the laws of physics. The other planets in our solar system can not support life. The nearest star is just over 4 light years away. That means that IF ( huge if ) an alien race lived there and attained the ability to travel at the speed of light it would take them 4 years to get here and 4 years to get back. Why bother? To fuck around with cave men?

Much like religion ( which invents a god who is all super-peachy-keen advanced but who still gives a rat's ass about whether or not people "believe" in him ) this alien shit is an expression of human ego. We think we are so fucking important ( or almighty to use your term) that scads of aliens are building space ships just to come here and meet US.

Frankly, the notion that alien scout ships are zipping around the universe seeking out primitive races to exploit is bizarre. Its about as bizarre as the inane belief that a dead jewish carpenter came back to life.

I also agree with Rayaan's point. There is nothing inherently impossible about building the pyramids except for the corner that Egyptologists have painted themselves into. Their equation looks something like this:

4th Dynasty Egyptians + primitive technology* + 20 years = pyramid.

* copper chisels, stone hammers, sleds, ropes, manpower

Any of the terms in the equation can be attacked. The Ancient Alien crowd goes after the 4th Dynasty Egyptians claiming they had help. Others suggest advanced tools for which we have no evidence.

I find the time frame impossible. It would require setting one massive stone every 40 seconds for 20 years and that is simply an insane schedule. But the Egyptologists have locked themselves into it by sticking to the "tombs-and-tombs-only" idea which means that they really can't allow for a longer building time because it is the reigning time of the pharaoh which forces that particular figure. 20 years was considered the absolute limit even though most pharaohs reigned for far shorter periods of time.

But the Egyptologists do what the religious shits do. They start with an idea and then try to make all the evidence they find fit into that idea.

Tracyt90

Thank you to the people that have actually contributed instead of just trying to "call me out" without having anything constructive to say. I would like to point out tho that I never once said that I believe in this theory to be 100 percent fact, nor did I say that I believe it to be fact that aliens have came to earth. Again, all I ever said that I believe is that aliens exist, whether they be a more advanced life form than us, a lesser life form, or even a single cell organism, I just find it very difficult to believe that we live on the only planet with life form. And until we have explored the entire universe and find no other life forms, I will continue to believe aliens exist. As far as the Ancient Astronaut Theory, I never said it is fact, you know honestly, it's just as fucking crazy as the idea of "gods", but it puts the origins of gods into a different perspective that I view. I was never trying to start this thread as a lets call each other out and belittle one another. I was just simply trying to start a thread on a subject that interests me.

So again, thank you to the people who contributed, the other people that just wanna sit there and try to "call me out", fuck you, you have nothing to contribute.

**Darwinian**

I'm not sure if this planet has ever been 'visited' by peoples from another world. However, it has been here for over 4 billion years and although we have only been broadcasting using radio waves for the past hundred or so, an advanced alien species would only have to take look at the composition of our atmosphere to 'mark' this planet out as something interesting to investigate.

As far as the ancient astronaut theory put forward by the likes of Von Daniken, well, he's just nuts isn't he? If aliens did visit us during our early years of civilisation then they certainly didn't leave any convincing evidence. However, that doesn't mean they didn't pay the odd visit.

padraic

Quote:Hmmm...how do you put up with me then? Thinking

My dear girl, fishing for compliments is not an attractive trait. You know full well you are no fool.

(see what I did there?) Wink Shades

Quote:Plus...if anyone DID tell us how to build pyramids... we didn't listen very well. There are definite 'mistakes' in Egypt proving someone didn't know what the hell they were doing (a problem that remains in construction today... [eye roll]). The 'bent' pyramid is the first anyone should look at.

Good point

Quote:I find the time frame impossible. It would require setting one massive stone every 40 seconds for 20 years and that is simply an insane schedule.

I've heard that claim before,not sure the evidence allows that inference. Modern consensus seem to be about 30 years,but in truth no one knows.

One of the many excellent documentaries around did an experiment cutting stone with a copper chisel. The chisel was much harder than expected,and very effective.

I suspect it's not so much matter of Egyptologists painting themselves into a corner,but more a matter of critics not being stone masons,builders,architects or engineers. EG it was an architect friend who explained about the simplicity and strength of the pyramid design.

Chuck

(28th January 2011 10:24)Tracyt90 Wrote: But I do believe tho that they are unexplainable wonders of our world that were not created by man alone, and there is proof to that. Take the Great Pyramids for example. They're have been numerous scientific recreations and simulations done on the creation of the Great Pyramids that prove they could not have been created by ancient man alone. Now what is your suggestion? Do you believe God created them? Do you really honestly believe that man wasted so much time and energy and resources into them and completed a proven impossible feat?

If by investing so much time and energy and resource, I can complete a proven impossible feat, then I think I would so invest these things just for the glory of beating a proven impossibility and overawing all the little unimagintive peasants like, uhem, would you not? Would a pharoal not?

How is attributing the difficult and the gaps in present knowledge to an undemonstrated ancient alien of undefined and unbounded attribute, capacity, and capability different from attributing to that the other undemonstrated, undefined and unbounded cop out called god?

**thesummerqueen**

(28th January 2011 23:40)padraic Wrote: (see what I did there?)

You just happen to like my silly. Tongue

Minimalist

I've done this math problem before, Pad, so I'll reprise it here.

Est. 2.5 million stones in the Great Pyramid.

2.5 million divided by 20 years = 125,000 per year

125,000 divided by 365 = 342 stones per day

342 divided by 24 hours = 14.25 stones per hour.

Basically one stone every 4 minutes BUT that is working 24/7 365 for 20 years.

As they did not have flood lights one must assume that they only worked when the sun was up which, if you give them the benefit of the doubt is half the time so they'd need to move 1 stone every two minutes provided they never stopped to eat, drink or take a dump. It assumes no accidents, no illnesses sweeping the camp, no days off, no bad weather...you get the picture.To top it all off the Egyptologists shoot themselves in the foot by claiming that the primary force of masons and quarrymen was a permanent work force of perhaps 8.000 but was augmented by laborers who were only sent during the Nile flood season when they couldn't work in the fields anyway. It was this part-time force which did the actual grunt work of moving the stones as they were unfit for more technical tasks. If that argument is true it blows the math all to hell. Oh, and by the way, even though no one knows what kind of ramp was used to get the stones to the top these same workers had to build the ramps too and the ramps would have been every bit as complex a project as the pyramid itself.

I've never heard anyone use a 30 year figure. Few pharaohs lived that long and one who did, Ramesses II, did not build a pyramid as that was out of fashion in the New Kingdom. Instead, he had a tomb which was robbed anyway.

However, if you lose the idea of the pyramid being a tomb then you are no longer constrained by the length of the pharaoh's life to get it done.

Of course, that brings back the question of WTF were they for?