A Thought from a Deist

[Godschild]

(11th March 2011 23:30)LastPoet Wrote:  

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(11th March 2011 22:51)Godschild Wrote:  1.) For someone that's suppose to know much about scripture you show little evidence of it. God's creation was perfect until Satan and man introduced sin into it and with it's corrupting force sin has brought God's creation to it's present state. You are in a sense correct about my idea of perfection that's why God provided me with a savior, your ideas of perfection are no better than mine.
2.) YES! He is omnipresent and omniscient. YES! Just because you can not love something before you recieve possession of it does not mean God is limited to your inadequacy.
3.) Stating what I see to be factual.
4.) God needs no help. Satan can not hurt God, read the book of Job and see God's power over Satan. Straping a bomb to your chest to prove a point makes you no more sane than those who do it to hurt others. God created other beings to love and to recieve love from them, the love that comes from us must be genuine and for this to be God gave us freewill.
5.) It's true no matter how desperate you are to try and prove otherwise. I've been trusting Him for sometime now and He has yet to fail. I know you'll never be able to understand this, trusting God falls under His will and knowing the best one can about His will aids one in trusting Him and understanding how God keeps His promises and answers prayer.

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To be honest, I do feel sorry for you...

Please don't feel sorry for me, I'm doing just fine.

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(11th March 2011 23:28)Ace Otana Wrote:  I was tempted to take on the whole post but I'm still technically on a break from debating religion, so I thought I'd take on a part of it for now.

Quote:God's creation was perfect until Satan and man introduced sin into it and with it's corrupting force sin has brought God's creation to it's present state.

I love it when theists do this. To me, it demonstrates the falseness of their beliefs.
Ok, now lets for the sake of argument, that there is a god and he designed and created everything. I would like to ask you something. Lets say there's a new aircraft with new engines on them. Lets say that for some reason the engines caught fire and blew up and so thus sending the aircraft out of the sky. Would you blame the pilot or the designer and builder of the new engine? If that engine fails, it isn't the pilots fault, it's the designer and builder of that engine. Now god designed and created the universe correct? Now whatever happens, he is directly responsible for it. He designed it, he created it. If we behave in certain ways, it's his fault, that's how he designed us. Also, god is all knowing, he KNEW we were going to sin.
And another thing, he created everything, so this includes Satan does it not? So he designed and created a powerful being which he KNEW was going to turn on him.
For god to design and create what he KNOWS will fail is a FAIL in itself!
God also KNEW about the suffering of those he creates, he designed and created it as so, this tells me that he's an arsehole!
Care to point out the rationality of all this bullshit?!

How do you know the pilot did not push the engines past their safety point, responsibility the pilot. The designer would set limits on the engine and with the pilot pushing them past their limit... well the pilot's at fault.
NO! He created Lucifer an arch angel, Lucifer sinned and did not repent and so he was the creator of Satan, just like your pilot he did not want to obey and suffers for his action.
God did not design man to sin that was man's choice, God gave man freewill and man misused it, just like your pilot misused the engines.

[Cinjin]

(4th March 2011 06:40)Cinjin Cain Wrote:  First of all let me say that you will NOT find an uninformed ranting fundamentalist imbecile here. As a matter of fact, I have no tolerance for any organized religion. I despise the religious "right" and hold Christianity and Judaism primarily responsible for nearly every act of madness this planet has ever experienced. My personal view is this. Live and let live. Believe in God - Don't believe in God ... I could care less. Just don't kill anybody cause I don't happen to agree with you.

That being said, I still believe in God. All religion is nonsensical lunacy to me, especially Christianity, but I still believe in the existance of a God. Don't get me wrong. I offer this faith no value. I assign this God no name, no emotions, no concepts. I don't suppose to know him (or her). I don't believe he's sitting in the room with me or reading this thread. I don't suppose that he can see the future or that he even has any interest in the events of this world. Hell, I don't even think he's perfect. I don't think he's out to get anyone, and by that measure I don't think he's out to save anyone either. I don't pray to him to help me find my car keys, get a raise, or save my aunt from cancer. I don't believe in "heaven" or hell". I simply believe that God made this little universe, set it in motion, and said, "have at it." I think religion (especially Christianity) made God out to be something he never ever was and never will be. I think intelligence in creation can be seen in some cases, but in reality "God" got the worst wrap in history ... all thanks to the religions of mankind. I have found that this concept of a God with no religion REALLY pisses off christians in general. No surprise there, but what I was so very surprised to find is how often it irritates atheists. This is upsetting to me because I MUCH prefer the company of atheists to christians. I get it - christians cannot seperate their God from their religion, but why would some (not all) atheists find me so offensive. I don't give a shit if you believe in God or not ... why does it offend you that I have a faith without a flag. A belief without a book, and a God without an army.

I would really like to hear some thoughts on this. Speak freely ... and I know you will.


Live and let live.

So, the most common response I got - among many, was ... "why bother believing in God at all if he's not involved with your existence?". Which honestly, is a very fair question. Why do I bother?

The only way I can really put it into words is to compare it to a child who grew up never knowing one or both of his parents (no, I am not adopted and yes, both of my parents are well known to me). It has been well documented that the majority of people who grow up never knowing their birth parents have an undying need to know where they came from. "Who is my mother/father?" is tant amount to "Who is my creator?" for billions of humans. Perhaps a true atheist can never understand this concept, but it's very real for the rest of us. The difference between me and the religious nut jobs is that I don't need my God to be my "missing dad" ... I don't need him to save me. I don't need him to protect me or make me feel like I'm a good person. But for whatever reason, one I cannot necessarily define, I need a Creator. Yes, even one that is flawed (maybe even preferably so). To answer your question ... I believe there's a God merely because I've always had an unexplainable desire to meet him.

[Ace Otana]

Oh this is going to be fun.

Quote:How do you know the pilot did not push the engines past their safety point, responsibility the pilot.

No, sorry but that is wrong. Aircraft engines are designed to be able to be at full throttle for hours on end without failer. Also the designer of those engines must understand the forces and the environments the engine must endure. The best way to mess up an aircraft engine is either by flying through an ash cloud or rapid increase and decrease of the throttle. Aircraft engines should never catch fire and blow up, no matter how the pilot uses them. So if one does catch fire and blow up it would be the designer/builders fault. I haven't yet herd of an engine blowing up because of a pilot.

Quote:The designer would set limits on the engine and with the pilot pushing them past their limit

Yes aircraft engines have limits, but never should it catch fire and blow up! That would be a serious safety concern for everyone onboard!

Quote:NO! He created Lucifer an arch angel, Lucifer sinned and did not repent and so he was the creator of Satan,

God knew about all this before it happened though didn't he? He created Lucifer, he knew what was going to happen. So the question still remains, why design and create something that you know will turn against you?

Quote:God did not design man to sin that was man's choice

Yes he did! He knows everything, he designed us and created us and he knew what was going to happen, it's his fault!
I don't think theists understand 'all-knowing'. God knew long before he even designed man that we would sin. He knew long before it happened. Whatever happens to his design and creations is his fault entirely!
He's all knowing and all powerful, so there's no excuse!

Quote:God gave man freewill and man misused it

God gave us free-will and he knew what was going to happen. He made us sapient, allowing us to think for ourselves and of course when he refuses to show himself, we'll start questioning his existence.

Here's another way of looking at where the responsibility lies. Lets say I construct a paper airplane that I designed to fly perfectly from one side of the room to the other. My knowledge being great enough to create the perfect paper airplane for which will land on a table far on the other side of the room. Now if I gave it a mind of it's own for which I know it will go against my wishes, and not land on the table as I wished then that's my fault. I designed it that way and knowingly, this means it's my fault.