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Immigration
#11
RE: Immigration
(March 30, 2011 at 11:11 am)tackattack Wrote: @skipper- No not on sight, not as an immediate response. Maybe an escalating deterrent. A wall with signs and audio broadcasts, then a caltrop/razor wire area 100 ft beyond, then patrol for detaining and perimeter intrusion equipment. If they escape with violence/continue to force their way in they obviously have no concern for their own safety and then I would advocate the use of deadly force. I know it's completely impractical and costly, but do it well or not at all. It should either be free coming and going, or a valid screening process and border protection. There is always a point when "no you can't come in" means "no" and if you're going to make that statment you should be prepared for people that can't take no for an answer. Personally I'd just see them completely opened while we attempted to repair our national deficit.

I'm all for protecting borders from mass uncontrolled immigration, but shooting people who are looking for a better life seems a bit harsh and I'd imagine not very Christian?
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#12
RE: Immigration
1. People emigrate to get a better life. I would probably call it losing freedom. Especially where America is concerned... that's like volunteering for slavery.

Identity and culture is fantastic. We can't be precious about that and try to force things to stay the same. Traditionalism is bad in my book.
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#13
RE: Immigration
(March 30, 2011 at 12:47 pm)Skipper Wrote: I'd imagine not very Christian?

Christianity both in its theological and social manifestation is such a fraud that the least christian thing a person can do is to become a christian.
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#14
RE: Immigration
This is the red-neck opinion on immigration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWNho8g0l...re=related

Personally I don't see a system that can handle deporting people that live here illegally so we need to grant them legality (so they can start paying some fucking taxes like the rest of us). It has nothing to do with ethnicity, it has to do with the abusing of the system. The system, man. It's fucked up, man.
Quote:"An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all humanity. "
Martin Luther King, Jr.
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#15
RE: Immigration
Hey! Did you all see? At 0:54 in that video there is a shot of the last atheistforums.org get together!
I used to tell a lot of religious jokes. Not any more, I'm a registered sects offender.
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...the least christian thing a person can do is to become a christian. ~Chuck
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NO MA'AM
[Image: attemptingtogiveadamnc.gif]
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#16
RE: Immigration
(March 30, 2011 at 7:28 am)theVOID Wrote: You sound like a total bigot.

That's my opinion.

Can't say fuck all about the US immigration problem, it's harder for them to get here. In our case I'm only for letting people in when there is a genuine shortage in skilled labor in the specific area, they can bring their culture with them all they like, in fact I welcome it.


The US does not have an immigration problem. It has problems of xenophobia and bigotry.

There are approximately 20 MILLION illegals in the US. Contrary to popular belief, they are NOT entitled to welfare,and DO pay taxes, from which they derive little benefit.

At the same the same time illegals are exploited unconscionably and do much of the menial work citizens will not do. [for the same low pay] If all illegals were removed tomorrow,the US would come to a screeching halt.


Quote: if you're going to change the culture of the territory you move to, why move?


The US is not today an homogenous culture and has has not been for at least a century. EG California is heading towards an Hispanic majority. The city of Washington already has a black majority. Many American cities have huge minorities of varying ethnicities,each has its own culture.

In a free society, the culture to which one adheres must be a matter of personal choice and custom. My ethnicity and personal cultural loyalty is nobody else's business as long I comply with the law of the land. I have every right to try to change whatever I want,using the rule of law.


Australia has a similar issue, writ small: The non issue of a few thousand refugees who arrive by boat from the Middle East. What is minor humanitarian issue has been turned into a major political issue by pandering to the worst qualities of human beings. It's quite disgusting and has earned my contempt for our major political parties. (it's not possible for me to be more contemptuous of the mass media).
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#17
RE: Immigration
(March 30, 2011 at 7:25 am)tackattack Wrote: I mean as humans, why do we have the need to spead out into a new cultral territory and make that territory more like where we came from?

Do you mean Hispanic parts of town or China town in some cities? I don't believe Hispanics are trying to change anything about America. They are trying to find ways to care for their families and leave countries that clearly care little for their own people. I have spoken with currently illegal immigrants (some of which are currently going through the naturalization process, which is a nightmare in its own right) and people who are now citizens who came here illegally years ago to try to get a better job and send back money to the family. It's not about them trying to change the culture. It's about opportunity, and I'm sure for some fathers or sons in Mexico or elsewhere, there is no question about whether to come or not. It's either attempt to come and risk losing your life or continue to try to raise a family in poverty. Many choose the first option because conditions are that abysmal. It's a very short sighted view to suggest that the main reason they are coming here is to change our culture. They have a culture (a rich one) just like Southern Americans have a certain culture. I would want to bring part of that culture with me if I were moving elsewhere, but that's really only a secondary consequence.

(March 30, 2011 at 7:25 am)tackattack Wrote: Is opportunity worth sacrificing a little personal pride and public heritage (not private)? Is there a cost/ sacrifice for moving to the US? Should there be?

There's the cost of possibly losing your life and never getting to see your family again. Many of these people are desperate. If they weren't, do you really think they would risk getting shot or starving in the desert for an opportunity to pick strawberries 15 hours per day? They are desperate, not stupid and certainly not lazy.

(March 30, 2011 at 7:25 am)tackattack Wrote: 2) What's the big deal about border enforcement? If someone breaks into your house with the intent to make it their own, and you had a gun, wouldn't you shoot them? In my opinion do it all the way or not at all, stop half assing everything. Opinions?

Number one: the 1,000-mile fence is ridiculous. Number two: a private person's house is not the same as a nation that operates under certain ethical modes of conduct by which to enforce laws. And like someone else said, I hope you're not advocating gunning down every person that illegally crosses a line in the desert. If so, we might as well roll back the country to the frontier days. My solution to all this would be to naturalize those who are here and contributing to the economy through employment, deport any illegal immigrants who may be eating up resources in jail (since they clearly don't have jobs) and make the path to citizenship more straightforward and less bureaucratic (the current process takes years, which is also absurd) and enact legislation that would continue to make all kids born in this country legal citizens. And no child should be denied K-12 public education because of immigration status, hands down.


Our Daily Train blog at jeremystyron.com

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We have lingered in the chambers of the sea | By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown | Till human voices wake us, and we drown. — T.S. Eliot

"... man always has to decide for himself in the darkness, that he must want beyond what he knows. ..." — Simone de Beauvoir

"As if that blind rage had washed me clean, rid me of hope; for the first time, in that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world. Finding it so much like myself—so like a brother, really—I felt that I had been happy and that I was happy again." — Albert Camus, "The Stranger"
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#18
RE: Immigration
(March 30, 2011 at 7:25 am)tackattack Wrote: I don't usually stray into the political waters but I thought I'd vomit up some thoughts.

Whenever I step into them, people stop thinking I'm silly and start thinking I'm a broken excuse for a human being. I disagree with these purists: I AM A SILLY BROKEN HUMAN BEING! Tiger

Quote:What are you opinions on the US immigration process. I think it's broken. My real question though is twofold

It sucks. More people is more power if you can adequately put these people to use.

Quote:1) Why would you want to move into a Country because it espouses "freedom" and "equality" and in the process of petitioning directly attack the sense of patriotism of said country? Doesn't that seem counterproductive? I mean as humans, why do we have the need to spead out into a new cultral territory and make that territory more like where we came from? I appreciate diversity and cultral recognition, but why do we need terms like xxxxxxx-american? If you were born in America, or are a nationalized citizen, wouldn't you just be american? I understand that a persons culture and heritage are important to the crux of who they are, but if you're going to change the culture of the territory you move to, why move? Is opportunity worth sacrificing a little personal pride and public heritage (not private)? Is there a cost/ sacrifice for moving to the US? Should there be?

You hopefully wouldn't move to a country because it tells you it is free AND equal. The former is a capitalistic and nigh anarchistic suggestion, and the other a weak socialistic simplicity.

If the opportunity you speak of is a high reward at a somewhat low risk... then hell yes it's worth moving to from a place with little reward and likely high risk.

Quote:2) What's the big deal about border enforcement? If someone breaks into your house with the intent to make it their own, and you had a gun, wouldn't you shoot them? In my opinion do it all the way or not at all, stop half assing everything. Opinions?

Agree. If you want to hold a border: don't kid around about it.

The moment you become lazy about your border: someone's going to take it from you or use that break in your fence to smuggle into it and wreak what havoc they can manage. However, this is harder to do the larger you grow, as your forces are less concentrated.
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
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#19
RE: Immigration
(March 30, 2011 at 9:39 pm)padraic Wrote:




Australia has a similar issue, write small: The non issue of a few thousand refugees who arrive by boat from the Middle East. What is minor humanitarian issue has been turned into a major political issue by pandering to the worst qualities of human beings. It's quite disgusting and has earned my contempt for our major political parties. (it's not possible for me to be more contemptuous of the mass media).

I am thinking here Padraic that the underlying issue of scarce water resources is something that is a problem in Aust. least of all the housing issue. I am finding also that even the 'skilled' immigrants are so bad and immigrant-based-nepotism is becoming an issue especially in the motor-trades since most of our qualified, skilled labour is "off to the mines".
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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#20
RE: Immigration
Quote:There are approximately 20 MILLION illegals in the US. Contrary to popular belief, they are NOT entitled to welfare,and DO pay taxes, from which they derive little benefit.


The Tea Baggers hate it when you use facts, Pad. They think it is unfair or something.
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