Immigration

[tackattack]

I don't usually stray into the political waters but I thought I'd vomit up some thoughts.

What are you opinions on the US immigration process. I think it's broken. My real question though is twofold

1) Why would you want to move into a Country because it espouses "freedom" and "equality" and in the process of petitioning directly attack the sense of patriotism of said country? Doesn't that seem counterproductive? I mean as humans, why do we have the need to spead out into a new cultral territory and make that territory more like where we came from? I appreciate diversity and cultral recognition, but why do we need terms like xxxxxxx-american? If you were born in America, or are a nationalized citizen, wouldn't you just be american? I understand that a persons culture and heritage are important to the crux of who they are, but if you're going to change the culture of the territory you move to, why move? Is opportunity worth sacrificing a little personal pride and public heritage (not private)? Is there a cost/ sacrifice for moving to the US? Should there be?

2) What's the big deal about border enforcement? If someone breaks into your house with the intent to make it their own, and you had a gun, wouldn't you shoot them? In my opinion do it all the way or not at all, stop half assing everything. Opinions?

[theVOID]

You sound like a total bigot.

That's my opinion.

Can't say fuck all about the US immigration problem, it's harder for them to get here. In our case I'm only for letting people in when there is a genuine shortage in skilled labor in the specific area, they can bring their culture with them all they like, in fact I welcome it.

[lilphil1989]

1) Why would you want to move into a Country because it espouses "freedom" and "equality" and in the process of petitioning directly attack the sense of patriotism of said country?

There's really no link between freedom/equality and patriotism. This is a common fallacy put forward by authoritarians. "If you don't support your country's every action, you don't believe in freedom"
It's complete nonsense.

I appreciate diversity and cultral recognition, but why do we need terms like xxxxxxx-american? If you were born in America, or are a nationalized citizen, wouldn't you just be american? I understand that a persons culture and heritage are important to the crux of who they are, but if you're going to change the culture of the territory you move to, why move? Is opportunity worth sacrificing a little personal pride and public heritage (not private)? Is there a cost/ sacrifice for moving to the US? Should there be?

So...
"I appreciate diversity and cultural recognition... *statement about cultural diversity being a bad thing* "

What?

In England we have a joke about Daily Mail readers that whenever they start a sentence with the phrase "I'm not racist, but..." it's invariably followed by a racist statement. This paragraph really reminded me of that.
If you want to speak against cultural diversity, fine, of course you have the right to do that, but don't be dishonest by preceding it with a false statement in an attempt to artificially make your position sound more socially acceptable.

2) What's the big deal about border enforcement? If someone breaks into your house with the intent to make it their own, and you had a gun, wouldn't you shoot them? In my opinion do it all the way or not at all, stop half assing everything. Opinions?

No, because my house is insured, if someone tries to squat, I'm covered for that. So I have to live somewhere else temporarily. So what? I'd much rather that than live the rest of my life as a murderer.

Secondly, the analogy is flawed anyway. If someone "makes your house their own", you can't live there anymore. Not so with immigration.
Ownership of a house is very simple, by one person. The running of your house can be controlled by you alone. Not so with a country, that's called a dictatorship, and they tend to be rather unpleasant places to live.

Are you seriously advocating killing in the name of protecting an arbitrary line on a map?

[Ubermensch]

I like people migrating, it broadens the minds of "natives" and migrants alike. What I'm uncool with however, is immigrants deciding they have nothing but contempt for the culture and customs of the host country. If I were to go to Korea I would make an effort to learn the language and customs; when in Rome, you dig?

[tackattack]

@Ubermensch- That's my point. If you're trying to transpose your entire culture and language into a new societaly local construct, wouldn't it indicate that you at least prefer that new society? Why go and attempt to subvert and destroy it's constructs by refusing to at least learn the language (or at least not deliberately attack fundamental patriotism).

---

You sound like a total bigot.

That's my opinion.

Can't say fuck all about the US immigration problem, it's harder for them to get here. In our case I'm only for letting people in when there is a genuine shortage in skilled labor in the specific area, they can bring their culture with them all they like, in fact I welcome it.

---

I might have sounded that way, but it's not my intent nor the perception of those who know me and have met and discussed with me. Perhaps you could point out exactly why and I can see if I can clarify.

---

1) Why would you want to move into a Country because it espouses "freedom" and "equality" and in the process of petitioning directly attack the sense of patriotism of said country?

There's really no link between freedom/equality and patriotism. This is a common fallacy put forward by authoritarians. "If you don't support your country's every action, you don't believe in freedom"
It's complete nonsense.

I appreciate diversity and cultral recognition, but why do we need terms like xxxxxxx-american? If you were born in America, or are a nationalized citizen, wouldn't you just be american? I understand that a persons culture and heritage are important to the crux of who they are, but if you're going to change the culture of the territory you move to, why move? Is opportunity worth sacrificing a little personal pride and public heritage (not private)? Is there a cost/ sacrifice for moving to the US? Should there be?

So...
"I appreciate diversity and cultural recognition... *statement about cultural diversity being a bad thing* "

What?

In England we have a joke about Daily Mail readers that whenever they start a sentence with the phrase "I'm not racist, but..." it's invariably followed by a racist statement. This paragraph really reminded me of that.
If you want to speak against cultural diversity, fine, of course you have the right to do that, but don't be dishonest by preceding it with a false statement in an attempt to artificially make your position sound more socially acceptable.

2) What's the big deal about border enforcement? If someone breaks into your house with the intent to make it their own, and you had a gun, wouldn't you shoot them? In my opinion do it all the way or not at all, stop half assing everything. Opinions?

No, because my house is insured, if someone tries to squat, I'm covered for that. So I have to live somewhere else temporarily. So what? I'd much rather that than live the rest of my life as a murderer.

Secondly, the analogy is flawed anyway. If someone "makes your house their own", you can't live there anymore. Not so with immigration.
Ownership of a house is very simple, by one person. The running of your house can be controlled by you alone. Not so with a country, that's called a dictatorship, and they tend to be rather unpleasant places to live.

Are you seriously advocating killing in the name of protecting an arbitrary line on a map?

---

1)Ok no fundamental link between the patriotically colloquial phrase "Home of the free" and perceived societal freedom? I beg to disagree, freedom from opression is a common theme in the US and lends quite a lot to our patriotism. I am in no way saying people can't be free to express disagreement with govmt. , it's also a founding principle of this country. However disagreeing with policy and protesting it is fine. But is it produective to do it while refusing to even pretend to contribute to the society you're protesting and actively attack the national pride?

1a)Is the purpose of moving to a favored society to productively integrate? I'm not nearly as bigotted as most people I know. I'm for people celebrating African heritage month, etc. It's not celebrating the culture of america though, so 'm just confused why the joining of the words?

1b) I see xxxxxxx-american as a needless segregation of society. Why not just celebrate and enjoy your culture wherever you are. If you're from Africa; be African, you can do that living in America. If you want to live in America and want to retain your African nationality, be an African in America or even an American from Africa, not an African-american. It may seem like a tautology, but I really see no purpose in dual nationality or somehow equating 2 nationalities. For example I know plenty of "african-americans" who haven't been in Africa for at least 5 generations. I have no probelms with any of them celebrating their heiritage or culture, what I have a problem with is them claiming a nationality based off lineage rather than their nation of residence. Why aren't they just Americans? Not to mention it has nothing to do with culture or heritage or nationality anymore it's only about color. Perhaps I could convey this if I stop using other people and use myself. I have Scotch, German, Dutch, American Indian geneology in me. I don't claim to be scottish-american, native-american,or dutch-american. I consider myself American. I enjoy the cultures I have in my geneology and other I don't. I find slightly more significance in the one's I have a family histroy in.

1c)Whatever my biases are I think it's fundamentally wrong to try and integrate into a society with which you show willfull disobedience to statutes and freedoms and a general contempt for.

2) Perhaps you don't have a "family to protect" instinct. If someone came into my 40 room mansion and wanted to live, sure I'd welcome that. If they didn't want to pay I might have a litle gripe about that but I wouldn't have a problem with that for short term. However, there is an expectation (in society) that contribution by all is standard. If they not only emphatically refused to contribute, and willfully started rearranging areas to the way their home looked I would talk with them, but not necessarily be against it. If they maliciously defied all previous communications and obstinantly refused to contribute attacked the foundational structure of their room and decided to start burning my drapes.... then I'd have to kick them out. If they wouldn't leave I'd have them escorted. If they broke in I would defend my family and property. I'm not advocating senseless killing. I am advocating protecting our country from radicals that refuse to conform to entry procedures (no matter how broke the process is) by an escalating scale.

[ib.me.ub]

Bag of worms this one.

[Skipper]

2) What's the big deal about border enforcement? If someone breaks into your house with the intent to make it their own, and you had a gun, wouldn't you shoot them? In my opinion do it all the way or not at all, stop half assing everything. Opinions?

So you're advocating shooting people on sight when protecting borders?

[tackattack]

@ib.me.ub-hence my rare excursion from the religion section.


@skipper- No not on sight, not as an immediate response. Maybe an escalating deterrent. A wall with signs and audio broadcasts, then a caltrop/razor wire area 100 ft beyond, then patrol for detaining and perimeter intrusion equipment. If they escape with violence/continue to force their way in they obviously have no concern for their own safety and then I would advocate the use of deadly force. I know it's completely impractical and costly, but do it well or not at all. It should either be free coming and going, or a valid screening process and border protection. There is always a point when "no you can't come in" means "no" and if you're going to make that statment you should be prepared for people that can't take no for an answer. Personally I'd just see them completely opened while we attempted to repair our national deficit.

[Minimalist]

If someone breaks into your house with the intent to make it their own, and you had a gun, wouldn't you shoot them?

Except they are crossing the border to trim my shrubs and Americans won't do that kind of work. I'm in Arizona which is ground zero for nut bag republican assholes who love guns and hate Mexicans. This whole "immigration" debate is nothing more than racism and, if you doubt that, ask why white Canadians are never part of the equation.

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

I don't usually stray into the political waters but I thought I'd vomit up some thoughts.

What are you opinions on the US immigration process. I think it's broken. My real question though is twofold

I would say that the immigration process for becoming a US citizen is broken in the sense that it's far too obtuse and difficult for anyone to get into the US.
It's also too easy to get into the US illegally. This dynamic needs to be switched.

1) Why would you want to move into a Country because it espouses "freedom" and "equality" and in the process of petitioning directly attack the sense of patriotism of said country? Doesn't that seem counterproductive? I mean as humans, why do we have the need to spead out into a new cultral territory and make that territory more like where we came from? I appreciate diversity and cultral recognition, but why do we need terms like xxxxxxx-american? If you were born in America, or are a nationalized citizen, wouldn't you just be american? I understand that a persons culture and heritage are important to the crux of who they are, but if you're going to change the culture of the territory you move to, why move? Is opportunity worth sacrificing a little personal pride and public heritage (not private)? Is there a cost/ sacrifice for moving to the US? Should there be?

Just people people move to the US and want to become a US citizen, doesn't mean they want to spurn their heritage. Many immigrants like having their cake and eating it too - and they can. Being called an islamo-american or african american or japanese-american is saying is simultaneously respecting where they're from and who they are. There's no shame in that.

2) What's the big deal about border enforcement? If someone breaks into your house with the intent to make it their own, and you had a gun, wouldn't you shoot them? In my opinion do it all the way or not at all, stop half assing everything. Opinions?

Shooting people for trying to find a better life for themselves is immoral, but better border security means better internal security for the US as well in terms of law enforcement. More protections against illegal contraband coming into the US illegally is always welcome.