Prayer ... SERIOUSLY?!

[Cinjin]

given your atheistic world view, why is slavery and dropping bombs on people even wrong? Seems you have to borrow from my world view in order to even argue against it.

As if I need your god to know what's right and wrong you arrogant fuck!

[Statler Waldorf]

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That's a bunch of garbage. So you believe the most powerful country on earth just happens to be eighty percent theistic?

Yep pure coincndence.

Your country happens to be top dog for the moment because it had the good sense to join the last two world wars very late in the day and have an industrial base that was too far away to be attacked by the enemy.

And in all the time it has been top dog it has never achieved as much good as the british empire did.

The British empire tried to end slavery all by itself, deciding to do was at a time when slavery was a growth industry in 1833 this is a full 32 years before america banned it and we all know how the theists(in he south) reacted to that.

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19th Century Britain was overwhelmingly theistic as well, just another coincidence?

[Shell B]

Apparently I get my history from the same place Univerisity of Kings College does. Sorry if that offends you.

You know, I have noticed an awful habit among creationists of claiming they have offended debate opponents when clearly being offended is not their positions. It is almost as if you want to be able to offend opponents. I assure you, I am not offended. Baffled, perhaps . . .

I was not including Germany in the bloodbath quote, I was including the Soviet Union, Cambodia, and Chinda. Although there 3rd reich was loaded with atheists as well as theists so I saw that as a bit of a wash.

I believe you said "atheist nations" in your original post on the subject. Now, you are using the term "regime." (see below) Cambodia, China and the Soviet Union are not and were not atheist nations. There is no such thing as an "atheist nation." However, we have had this discussion before and I don't want to read your biased statements on the subject again. No offense.

You guys always point to the crusades and inquisition which of course happened hundreds and hundreds of years ago and pale in comparison to the atrocities committeed in the 20th century by atheistic regimes.

They pale in comparison? You can't be serious. A. The atrocities you speak of were not committed in the name of atheism. Christians cannot say the same about the Crusades and Inquisitions. B. Time makes no difference. The beginning middle and current status of your religion has been one peppered with violence, hatred and bigotry. Some Christians choose to ignore it, some embrace it.

More people were killed in cambodia on one day than were ever killed in the inquistion. I think comparing a dixie cup to the ocean is a bit of a cowardly game myself. You also seem to forget that the abolishionist movement was let by Christians. Not why dropping atomic bombs is somehow magically worse than leveling the same cities with normal bombs.

Again, there was more than one Inquisition. Please provide sources for this outrageous claim that more people were killed in Cambodia in one day than in the Inquisitions. Furthermore, the abolitionist movement was not led by Christians. That is another absurd assumption. Sure, some were Christian, but to say all were is just something you are pulling out of your ass. Oh, and atomic bombs wreak havoc for untold years to come. Survivors are still casualties. Their children become casualties, and so on. The difference is obvious.

Since nobody on here has ever answered this maybe you can, given your atheistic world view, why is slavery and dropping bombs on people even wrong? Seems you have to borrow from my world view in order to even argue against it.

I am sure people have answered it, but you just didn't like the answer. Slavery and dropping bombs are wrong because hindering the freedom of and killing innocent people is wrong. Now, you may think that borrows from your worldview, but I think the opposite. Firstly, Christians do not have a monopoly on humanitarian issues. Secondly, the Bible is clear that god thinks murder is okay, so long as you do it when he asks. It is also clear that slavery is okay in the Bible. Don't give me your bullshit, Stat. Come up with something that cannot be refuted by your own holy book.

[Statler Waldorf]

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given your atheistic world view, why is slavery and dropping bombs on people even wrong? Seems you have to borrow from my world view in order to even argue against it.

As if I need your god to know what's right and wrong you arrogant fuck!

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Prove you don't. Tell me why these things are wrong, just not that they are wrong. Thinking you don't need a higher law giver to have morality is what is really arrogant here.

[reverendjeremiah]

Done... never liked your crap anyways, and never understood why the Mods allow you to flame your fundy bullcrap all over this atheist forum anyways. People like you would surely not reciprocate if the situation were reversed.

Because he has done nothing worthy of banishment. I understand your sentiment, but people who contribute without breaking the rules enough times to warrant being banned are welcome here. Sure, he would not reciprocate, but I don't start behaving like people I disagree with just to get back at them for disagreeing with me. This situation is exactly what the ignore function is for. Enjoy, Jeremiah.

I understand, and I dont knock the mod team for running it their way. To be honest this is one of the first forum sites I have joined that I am not a moderator on, and I am happy about the fact. Dealing with a few hundred atheists on a Yahoo group took its toll on me, and I helped institute a "quick ban" procedure dealing with the fundies and chatty Cathy's. If someone came on a-preachin' and people started leaving the group. We banned them (or silenced them) immediately and I would personally contact the members who left to inform them that the situation was fixed and to please come back. Our atheist group that I was moderating was so popular that we were front page on the local newspaper. It was a hell of a job for me. No pay. All of the headache trying to herd cats. The experience points were worth it...we managed to get a great many number of atheists to atend a rally on the "under god" Supreme court decision.


Thats me holding the sign

These days I focus more on my Union position as loan officer for the Credit union and Examining board.

Its time for the younger generation to take a stand for the first amendment as I have, and I try to encourage them as much as possible to do so.

[Statler Waldorf]

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Statler. Just because Mao and Stalin were atheists does not mean they killed millions because of their religious beliefs, they killed them for their POLITICAL beliefs. Your country hasnt been crazy religious like it is now, for as long as you think. Catholic church held back science for centuries. Also look at most atheist countries followed by standards of living.

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You believe that if Stalin and Mao had believed they would receive justice for their actions after their death they still would have killed millions? I doubt it; their atheism directly fueled their actions.

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The Reformation of the 17th century did help create the Age of Enlightenment and subsequent explosion of scientific knowledge but not for the reasons Statler would like to think.

The breaking of Catholic power and it's monolithic stranglehold on Western society was an essential step. This is not to say the Protestants were any better behaved. They only fractured Christian power thoroughly enough to allow thinking people the room they needed to maneuver.

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You act like guys like Bacon and Newton were not Christians, their theistic presuppositions directly fueld their science.

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Statler, the people in the US claim to be religious, but they're lying.

Or maybe you are lying. Can you prove this assertion?

[5thHorseman]

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Statler, where do you get your history from? Really, I want to know.

I love my country and happen to be oddly patriotic. I say oddly because I am a pessimistic asshole about everything, but you put a flag in front of me and I get all optimistic. Anyway, though I love my country, I would not say that the greatest atrocities or "bloodbaths," if you will, came from elsewhere, out of so-called atheist nations. Germany was not an atheist nation, ever. The United States may be largely theistic, disgustingly so even, but this country is not innocent. We are the only country to ever drop nuclear weapons on people. What does that say about your beloved Christians? Well, if Christians represent the U.S. and atheists represent the rest, I guess that makes Christians cowards. The only bloodbath they have was dropping two fucking nukes on innocent people. Oh, and we have slavery too. Of course, none of that is accurate. The U.S. is the U.S., not Christ Nation. You and your fucking compatriots have plenty to answer for in history, which is precisely why you chose to say "20th century." Speaking of cowards . . .

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Apparently I get my history from the same place Univerisity of Kings College does. Sorry if that offends you.

I was not including Germany in the bloodbath quote, I was including the Soviet Union, Cambodia, and Chinda. Although there 3rd reich was loaded with atheists as well as theists so I saw that as a bit of a wash. You guys always point to the crusades and inquisition which of course happened hundreds and hundreds of years ago and pale in comparison to the atrocities committeed in the 20th century by atheistic regimes. More people were killed in cambodia on one day than were ever killed in the inquistion. I think comparing a dixie cup to the ocean is a bit of a cowardly game myself. You also seem to forget that the abolishionist movement was let by Christians. Not why dropping atomic bombs is somehow magically worse than leveling the same cities with normal bombs.

Since nobody on here has ever answered this maybe you can, given your atheistic world view, why is slavery and dropping bombs on people even wrong? Seems you have to borrow from my world view in order to even argue against it.

Quite how you cant understand that these things you mention were not for religious but political purposes is beyond anyone here. Your churches murdered in the name of god and jesus christ. Communists killed to oppress political opponents. Cambodia is a terrible example. The Viet-Cong killed people who could read ffs they were against education, even your nutty creationist retard republicans are slight anti-education being they want creationism bs taught (Palin obv), your ignorance for the reasons people killed like they did is astounding retarded. You have just clung on to 'he's an atheist' and 'it must be because he's an atheist'. Lets face it, he killed less but Adolf ' ROMAN CATHOLIC ' Hitler was the biggest influence on the 20th century. Also 90-95% of germans (who voted the nazi's in were christians so dont prattle the atheist bs there either please.

Just look at american prison population for atheists and religious people and note the massive % off each societies prison population.

[Cinjin]

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given your atheistic world view, why is slavery and dropping bombs on people even wrong? Seems you have to borrow from my world view in order to even argue against it.

As if I need your god to know what's right and wrong you arrogant fuck!

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Prove you don't. Tell me why these things are wrong, just not that they are wrong. Thinking you don't need a higher law giver to have morality is what is really arrogant here.

Prove it? Haven't we ALREADY?!? I don't support slavery or dropping bombs or stoning women or severing limbs. I don't steal. I don't kill. I don't rape. I don't molest. I don't do things that hurt other people and I condemn those that do. AND I do this all without your church, your bible or your bloodthirsty god - and have been for some time now. There's your proof.

Oh and this shit you wrote right here: Thinking you don't need a higher law giver to have morality is what is really arrogant here ...
Has got to be one of the STUPIDEST claims I've ever read on this site. And that's sayin a lot .... cause you've said some dumb shit!

[5thHorseman]

You act like guys like Bacon and Newton were not Christians, their theistic presuppositions directly fueld their science.

Christianity in no way influences science. Science is about searching for the truth, nothing in religion can point it in the correct path. 1600 year old twice traslated mishmashed nonsensical jibberjabber cannot. Yes they were christians but christianity has nothing to do with science, and it definately has nothing to do with intelligence (Of which they both had in abundance).

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[/quote]

You believe that if Stalin and Mao had believed they would receive justice for their actions after their death they still would have killed millions? I doubt it; their atheism directly fueled their actions.

[/quote]

Ok so why didn't the christian churches stop massacring during crusades, witch burning, northern irish troubles, and hitler etc. kinda shits on your directly fuelled bs. did none of these people feel guilt or that they were doing wrong? maybe they were all atheist as well.

[Statler Waldorf]

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Apparently I get my history from the same place Univerisity of Kings College does. Sorry if that offends you.

You know, I have noticed an awful habit among creationists of claiming they have offended debate opponents when clearly being offended is not their positions. It is almost as if you want to be able to offend opponents. I assure you, I am not offended. Baffled, perhaps . . .

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Oh good, I feel better now.

I believe you said "atheist nations" in your original post on the subject. Now, you are using the term "regime." (see below) Cambodia, China and the Soviet Union are not and were not atheist nations. There is no such thing as an "atheist nation." However, we have had this discussion before and I don't want to read your biased statements on the subject again. No offense.

Actually I said "atheist leaders", and I assure you all three of those nations had them. I don't enjoy your biased statements anymore than you enjoy mine. I am not offended, baffled maybe... :-)

They pale in comparison? You can't be serious. A. The atrocities you speak of were not committed in the name of atheism. Christians cannot say the same about the Crusades and Inquisitions. B. Time makes no difference. The beginning middle and current status of your religion has been one peppered with violence, hatred and bigotry. Some Christians choose to ignore it, some embrace it.

Yes, killing thousands of people in holy wars pales in comparison to killing over 100 million of your own citizens. How can you say they were done in the name of Christianity? Where did Jesus say to kill Muslims and take land? It sounds like they were done for personal gain to me. Stop pointing to ancient history and start learning your recent history.

Again, there was more than one Inquisition. Please provide sources for this outrageous claim that more people were killed in Cambodia in one day than in the Inquisitions. Furthermore, the abolitionist movement was not led by Christians. That is another absurd assumption. Sure, some were Christian, but to say all were is just something you are pulling out of your ass. Oh, and atomic bombs wreak havoc for untold years to come. Survivors are still casualties. Their children become casualties, and so on. The difference is obvious.

Easy enough,

“The number of people who died in the various inquistions across Europe is difficult to determine, but the number of victims can be numbered in the thousands, not the millions as a previous respondent stated. The entire populations of Europe would have been wiped out if inquisitors had killed in those numbers! Even though the Spanish Inquisition lasted for hundreds of years the Inquisition was held primarily in small areas in France, Spain and Italy.”
Answers.com

So a few thousand people in about 300 years, now let’s see how many people were killed in Cambodia in a few years…
“During the Cambodian Genocide of 1975-1979, approximately 1.7 million people lost their lives (21% of the country's population), it was one of the worst human tragedies of the 20th century.”
Answers.com

That’s nearly 1200 people a day! So maybe it took them two or three days to equal the 300 years of the inquisitions, but I think my point still stands. You are still making an inappropriate comparison.

So you don’t think that regular bombing has lasting effects? Ever heard of unexploded ordnances?

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I am sure people have answered it, but you just didn't like the answer. Slavery and dropping bombs are wrong because hindering the freedom of and killing innocent people is wrong. Now, you may think that borrows from your worldview, but I think the opposite. Firstly, Christians do not have a monopoly on humanitarian issues. Secondly, the Bible is clear that god thinks murder is okay, so long as you do it when he asks. It is also clear that slavery is okay in the Bible. Don't give me your bullshit, Stat. Come up with something that cannot be refuted by your own holy book.

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What kind of answer was that? “Slavery is wrong because putting people in chains is wrong!” You have done nothing to demonstrate why they are wrong; you have only said that dropping bombs is wrong because killing people is wrong. Why is killing people wrong?

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[quote='Statler Waldorf' pid='142009' dateline='1307046334']
given your atheistic world view, why is slavery and dropping bombs on people even wrong? Seems you have to borrow from my world view in order to even argue against it.

As if I need your god to know what's right and wrong you arrogant fuck!

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Prove you don't. Tell me why these things are wrong, just not that they are wrong. Thinking you don't need a higher law giver to have morality is what is really arrogant here.

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Prove it? Haven't we ALREADY?!? I don't support slavery or dropping bombs or stoning women or severing limbs. I don't steal. I don't kill. I don't rape. I don't molest. I don't do things that hurt other people and I condemn those that do. AND I do this all without your church, your bible or your bloodthirsty god - and have been for some time now. There's your proof.

Oh and this shit you wrote right here: Thinking you don't need a higher law giver to have morality is what is really arrogant here ...
Has got to be one of the STUPIDEST claims I've ever read on this site. And that's sayin a lot .... cause you've said some dumb shit!

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You didn't prove what I asked you to. I never said you can't be a moral person without the Bible, I said you have no logical basis to be one. Why do you think those things are wrong? Was Stalin a bad person just because he didn't think killing was wrong and so he did it?

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Quite how you cant understand that these things you mention were not for religious but political purposes is beyond anyone here. Your churches murdered in the name of god and jesus christ. Communists killed to oppress political opponents. Cambodia is a terrible example. The Viet-Cong killed people who could read ffs they were against education, even your nutty creationist retard republicans are slight anti-education being they want creationism bs taught (Palin obv), your ignorance for the reasons people killed like they did is astounding retarded. You have just clung on to 'he's an atheist' and 'it must be because he's an atheist'. Lets face it, he killed less but Adolf ' ROMAN CATHOLIC ' Hitler was the biggest influence on the 20th century. Also 90-95% of germans (who voted the nazi's in were christians so dont prattle the atheist bs there either please.

Just look at american prison population for atheists and religious people and note the massive % off each societies prison population.

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Huh? Let's say I am an "A-americanist", I don't believe the laws of America apply to me because I don't believe America exists. I then go on a killing spree. You would seriously say, "Well his views that America's laws didn't apply to him had nothing to do with the fact he violated the law by killing people." I beg to differ. If man does not believe he is accountable for his actions after his death, he will do all sorts of terrible things to better his situation, just like Stalin did.

Killed in the name of Jesus huh? Where did Jesus say to kill anyone? So were they really killing in the name of the true Jesus? Seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too. "Atheists don't kill because they are atheists but when people act in a way that is completely contrary to what Christ taught they are doing it because they are Christians!"

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Christianity in no way influences science. Science is about searching for the truth, nothing in religion can point it in the correct path. 1600 year old twice traslated mishmashed nonsensical jibberjabber cannot. Yes they were christians but christianity has nothing to do with science, and it definately has nothing to do with intelligence (Of which they both had in abundance).

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Without a Biblical universe the very preconditions for intelligibility would be impossible. These of course are required in order to even conduct science, so I am afraid I disagree, sciences owes everything to a Biblical universe. So you are essentially saying, a house doesn't have anything to do with the foundation it is built on. Guys like Newton and Kepler knew this, sadly many people today have forgotten it.

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Ok so why didn't the christian churches stop massacring during crusades, witch burning, northern irish troubles, and hitler etc. kinda shits on your directly fuelled bs. did none of these people feel guilt or that they were doing wrong? maybe they were all atheist as well.

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If Stalin and Mao were actual Christians who followed the teachings of Jesus Christ they would not have killed anyone like they did. Just because someone claims to be a Christian does not mean they are one, so your crusades example is kind of off, unless you can show me where Jesus taught his followers to kill Muslims.