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RE: New York Post Cartoon
February 21, 2009 at 1:44 pm
(February 20, 2009 at 7:38 pm)Tiberius Wrote: bozo, I'm talking about equal as human beings, not anything else. Obviously people aren't equal in terms of economics, but as human beings (without political beliefs, religious beliefs, or economics coming into it) we are all equal. We have no control over our sexuality, or our skin colour, or which nation we happened to be born in, so it is absolute rubbish to say that one set of people are "better" than another based on any of these.
Adrian, people are not born " equal ". The child of the poorest couple on the planet is not "equal " to Bill Gates' offspring.
I'll have a modest wager with you that the poorest people on the planet would willingly accept whatever worst racist term was levelled at them in exchange for food in their stomachs, a roof over their heads, medical attention when needed and a hope of a better future for their offspring.
 A man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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RE: New York Post Cartoon
February 21, 2009 at 7:47 pm
You keep turning back to economics! Stop it! I never said people were born equal in terms of wealth, or power, or anything like that. I am saying that we are all part of the same species, we all have the genetic code that defines us as human, and we must be held as equal, regardless of sex, colour, age, and sexual orientation.
This is basic human rights stuff...
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RE: New York Post Cartoon
February 21, 2009 at 7:56 pm
(February 21, 2009 at 7:47 pm)Tiberius Wrote: You keep turning back to economics! Stop it! I never said people were born equal in terms of wealth, or power, or anything like that. I am saying that we are all part of the same species, we all have the genetic code that defines us as human, and we must be held as equal, regardless of sex, colour, age, and sexual orientation.
This is basic human rights stuff...
No I won't stop it. Equality means nothing repeat nothing ...when you are battling for survival. Equality is meaningless to the desperate.
A man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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RE: New York Post Cartoon
February 21, 2009 at 8:03 pm
It doesn't matter if it means nothing to people. It is there. It exists. It is a human right that applies to everyone regardless of whether they know about or care about it or not. It is a philosophical argument for the improvement of society on the whole. It is a social constant that needs to be in place for us to rid this world of bigotry.
One could argue that quantum mechanics is meaningless to 99% of the people on this planet, and indeed it probably is. That doesn't stop it from existing or being there, or having an effect. Quantum mechanics can explain things even if people don't understand them, just the same as equality should exist as a social constant even if people don't know about it, or don't care about it, or take shit just so they can get something to eat.
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RE: New York Post Cartoon
February 21, 2009 at 8:09 pm
(February 21, 2009 at 8:03 pm)Tiberius Wrote: It doesn't matter if it means nothing to people. It is there. It exists. It is a human right that applies to everyone regardless of whether they know about or care about it or not. It is a philosophical argument for the improvement of society on the whole. It is a social constant that needs to be in place for us to rid this world of bigotry.
One could argue that quantum mechanics is meaningless to 99% of the people on this planet, and indeed it probably is. That doesn't stop it from existing or being there, or having an effect. Quantum mechanics can explain things even if people don't understand them, just the same as equality should exist as a social constant even if people don't know about it, or don't care about it, or take shit just so they can get something to eat. IT isn't there!
A man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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RE: New York Post Cartoon
February 23, 2009 at 6:17 pm
(This post was last modified: February 23, 2009 at 6:23 pm by Meatball.)
Bozo and Adrian seem to be thinking about this from different angles.
I side with Adrian in that all human beings are fundamentally equal. Not all will make the same kind of impact, not all will accumulate and inherit the same monetary wealth or power.
Richard Dawkins and Ted Haggard are both human beings and should be afforded equal rights to life and liberty. Furthermore, Bill Gates and an African child born malnourished with AIDS are both human beings and should be afforded equal rights to life and liberty, and are equal in that sense. Some people get the short end of the stick, yes. The world isn't fair in that sense. What's important is that no human is fundamentally "better" than another.
Bozo, do you feel that Bill Gates' offspring are entitled to something that the poor couples' child is not? I'm not talking literally (obviously), but philosophically.
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RE: New York Post Cartoon
February 23, 2009 at 7:39 pm
(February 23, 2009 at 6:17 pm)Meatball Wrote: Bozo and Adrian seem to be thinking about this from different angles.
I side with Adrian in that all human beings are fundamentally equal. Not all will make the same kind of impact, not all will accumulate and inherit the same monetary wealth or power.
Richard Dawkins and Ted Haggard are both human beings and should be afforded equal rights to life and liberty. Furthermore, Bill Gates and an African child born malnourished with AIDS are both human beings and should be afforded equal rights to life and liberty, and are equal in that sense. Some people get the short end of the stick, yes. The world isn't fair in that sense. What's important is that no human is fundamentally "better" than another.
Bozo, do you feel that Bill Gates' offspring are entitled to something that the poor couples' child is not? I'm not talking literally (obviously), but philosophically.
I am considering this from reality. Equality means zilch when your chief aim is survival. It is all well and good for Adrian to argue in the abstract, but it is no solace for the poorest people on the planet. Of course we would all agree that no person is entitled to be classed as better than any other but reality intervenes.
Of course Bill Gates' children are no more deserving than any other, but the reality is that they will want for nothing! Even worse, they will luxuriate in vast sums of inherited wealth and it won't matter if they are good, bad or indifferent individuals.
A man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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RE: New York Post Cartoon
February 23, 2009 at 7:40 pm
What I found confusing was that bozo, as a socialist, was rejecting the kind of thinking that socialism depends on. Namely that of egalitarianism. To be honest, he was the last person I thought I'd be arguing against  It's one of the socialist/communist philosophies I actually agree with 100%
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RE: New York Post Cartoon
February 23, 2009 at 7:46 pm
(February 23, 2009 at 7:40 pm)Tiberius Wrote: What I found confusing was that bozo, as a socialist, was rejecting the kind of thinking that socialism depends on. Namely that of egalitarianism. To be honest, he was the last person I thought I'd be arguing against It's one of the socialist/communist philosophies I actually agree with 100%
I am not rejecting the idea at all...haven't I just said that?
This thread started off about racism and you do not se the racism in the cartoon.
We are now on to what equality means and socialism would facilitate that but you are reluctant to subscribe to that view.
You are then left with espousing the obvious that wse are all born equal......but we are not.
A man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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RE: New York Post Cartoon
February 23, 2009 at 7:52 pm
Sorry, looks like we posted at the same time. I did see how the image could be interpreted as racist, but I didn't see it as racist in nature. That was the difference. I'm sure socialism would facilitate equality, which is why I subscribe to egalitarianism, but I am unconvinced that socialism can solve economical problems. Please explain how you can call the philosophy that we are born equal "obvious" and then say it doesn't happen. That seems like a contradiction.
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