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How to Authentically Experience God
#1
How to Authentically Experience God
I don't understand how so many people around the world can have different experiences of a supposed deity. I mean, we're all atheists here (or something along those lines), so generally we believe that none of these religions is true. If none of them are true, then why do so many people have a supposed experience with god?

For Christians it might be supernatural healing, or speaking in tongues, or a vision or dream which comes true. Now, I call myself an agnostic on my way to atheism, but I believe some of these people. Obviously, some of them are just trying to look important, but I've spoken to trustworthy people whom I respect who can describe a specific experience with god.

I'm not suggesting it's god who is giving people these experiences, I'm suggesting there is something going on that cannot simply be put down to, "they're deluded". I think it's naive and arrogant to write them all off as wrong. I think something is happening, and science just doesn't understand it yet.

I want to know what you guys think is happening. Assuming some of them are being honest, are they simply deluding themselves? Are they creating an experience with some untapped part of the human brain that we haven't discovered yet?

What's actually happening?

I have my own ideas, but I want to hear a few of yours.
"I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability." Oscar Wilde
My Blog | Why I Don't Believe in God
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#2
RE: How to Authentically Experience God
I think you've covered it athoughtfulman with delusion and the God of the gaps.

I know a person I very much trust who claims to have seen physical healing happen. I seriously doubt it. I also heard Roger Forster say the same, and I struggle to doubt him, but I do. Personally I have dreams of future events. I always have. These are events in my own personal life, that I then live through. It's like re-watching a movie in true 1st person 3D LOL. I don't associate that with my Christian belief. It's almost the opposite in that it's a very strong experience to dismiss logically. I now look at it in a balanced way I think, and attribute no importance to it.

I've spoken in tongues, the baby like language as a basic expression rather than the other type, speaking in a language unknown to me that someone else in my hearing will understand. I've heard people claim to understand some apparent jibberish, but I don't believe any of those interpreters or speakers, however sincere, were actually doing so.
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#3
RE: How to Authentically Experience God
Well I of course don't believe that ANYONE can authentically experience God because I don't think there is one to experience!

For people to really THINK and genuinely BELIEVE they have - I think its either delusion......or its a hoax that they have mistaken for the real thing. Not necessarily delusion there - just not being skeptical enough and/or being too stupid/ignorant to notice that its a hoax. Or to understand that however improbable it may seem to be a hoax - the alternative, God's actual existence is practically infinitely more improbable!

I mean miracles are SAID to be experienced all the time around the world! But none of them are genuine.

EvF
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#4
RE: How to Authentically Experience God
I think it is, in effect, delusion ... a flaw with the way someone sees the universe around them.

I'm not going to go into detail but I think it is generally accepted by neuroscientists and psychologists that we have an internal map of our universe and navigate our way through that ... certainly I haven't heard a more logically appealing one. IOW we don't navigate directly through the real universe.

If this is true then it's easy to see how, if the internal map falls out of synch with the real universe, problems can result and can easily explain hallucinations, visions, god experiences and so on with the person experiencing it utterly unable to tell that what they are experiencing is, in effect, a mental breakdown.

It also. of course, falls in line with my view that religion (especially when visions are experienced) are the first step into mental illness ... when people have invisible friends they are treated for mental psychosis, people who believe they have a "personal" relationship with their god aren't treated in that way but on the face of it it's hard to see why.

Kyu
Angry Atheism
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#5
RE: How to Authentically Experience God
(March 11, 2009 at 5:03 am)fr0d0 Wrote: I think you've covered it athoughtfulman with delusion and the God of the gaps.

I know a person I very much trust who claims to have seen physical healing happen. I seriously doubt it. I also heard Roger Forster say the same, and I struggle to doubt him, but I do. Personally I have dreams of future events. I always have. These are events in my own personal life, that I then live through. It's like re-watching a movie in true 1st person 3D LOL. I don't associate that with my Christian belief. It's almost the opposite in that it's a very strong experience to dismiss logically. I now look at it in a balanced way I think, and attribute no importance to it.

I've spoken in tongues, the baby like language as a basic expression rather than the other type, speaking in a language unknown to me that someone else in my hearing will understand. I've heard people claim to understand some apparent jibberish, but I don't believe any of those interpreters or speakers, however sincere, were actually doing so.

I'll likely regret asking, but I don't understand your last para. What are you saying? Maybe you're talking jibberish,I know not.
HuhA man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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#6
RE: How to Authentically Experience God
I think that delusion is a likely cause for most of these cases, however, I don't believe delusion can be the case of all. To have so many millions of people deluded would be something of magnificent proportions. But to look at it that something different is happening makes more sense to me.

Science is only beginning to understand human consciousness, what will it uncover in the next few decades or centuries?

Granted, speaking in tongues could be put down to a simple delusion. But healings? And there is enough people testifying to this AROUND THE WORLD that we can't dismiss it lightly. What's actually happening? I mean, sure, most of us have a friend who talks about it, and maybe he's lying, maybe he's being honest, or maybe he's deluded. But I can hardly believe that thousands of people are deluded in the same way.

As for that 'seeing future events', maybe something is happening that we simply can't explain. And like I said in the first post, I think it IS something science can explain, when it finally discovers the actual process. It's like evolution - before that, no one could actually say how the earth was created. It might have been a god, but that needed faith. Now we have an option for those who wish to believe in something factual, rather than something sentimental.

Or take metaphysics. Perhaps there is energy all around us now. It is not a 'god' as some might say, but a guiding force. It's the one that responds to prayer (there are studies done on the effectiveness of prayer), the one that responds to healing, the one that gives visions, that induces tongues, and any other amount of personal experiences of god. This would explain almost everything to do with religion. It might be nothing, or it might be the answer.

(March 11, 2009 at 7:54 pm)bozo Wrote:
(March 11, 2009 at 5:03 am)fr0d0 Wrote: I think you've covered it athoughtfulman with delusion and the God of the gaps.

I know a person I very much trust who claims to have seen physical healing happen. I seriously doubt it. I also heard Roger Forster say the same, and I struggle to doubt him, but I do. Personally I have dreams of future events. I always have. These are events in my own personal life, that I then live through. It's like re-watching a movie in true 1st person 3D LOL. I don't associate that with my Christian belief. It's almost the opposite in that it's a very strong experience to dismiss logically. I now look at it in a balanced way I think, and attribute no importance to it.

I've spoken in tongues, the baby like language as a basic expression rather than the other type, speaking in a language unknown to me that someone else in my hearing will understand. I've heard people claim to understand some apparent jibberish, but I don't believe any of those interpreters or speakers, however sincere, were actually doing so.

I'll likely regret asking, but I don't understand your last para. What are you saying? Maybe you're talking jibberish,I know not.

And before this discussion goes further, I think it's worth pointing out that if anyone has any personal experiences of their own, may they not be ridiculed. This is about intelligent discussion and atheists would do well to try and understand where religious people (or atheists with religious experience) are coming from. We will get no where by writing each other off.
"I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability." Oscar Wilde
My Blog | Why I Don't Believe in God
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#7
RE: How to Authentically Experience God
(March 13, 2009 at 8:49 am)athoughtfulman Wrote: And before this discussion goes further, I think it's worth pointing out that if anyone has any personal experiences of their own, may they not be ridiculed.

Give me one good reason why not.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
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#8
RE: How to Authentically Experience God
I think I replied but it got lost...

Why not? Because it undermines us.

Christians ridicule athiests and atheists ridicule christians. It's just what happens. If you haven't realised, then you've not looking out for it. The point being is that every side can do it to every side. Atheism has plenty of well constructed arguments, so why not use them?

Any cheap shots at someone's person experience (at least in my eyes) undermines what we believe. It gives the idea that we don't have anything better. Show that their experience isn't god by all means, but do it with reason and intellect. Not like some schoolboy bully.

Or suit yourself, I'm not here to defend them.
"I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability." Oscar Wilde
My Blog | Why I Don't Believe in God
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#9
RE: How to Authentically Experience God
Ridiculing personal experiences is not per definition ridiculing the theist, but giving a different perspective on experiences and giving a not to be miscontrued view on how I regard this experience. If someone says that he has personally experienced Santa Clause bringing him presents, I have every right to ridicule that. Same as someone claiming to be abducted by aliens for anal probing. I will probably ridicule those personal experiences till the day I die.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
Reply
#10
RE: How to Authentically Experience God
(March 13, 2009 at 8:49 am)athoughtfulman Wrote: I think that delusion is a likely cause for most of these cases, however, I don't believe delusion can be the case of all. To have so many millions of people deluded would be something of magnificent proportions. But to look at it that something different is happening makes more sense to me.

Science is only beginning to understand human consciousness, what will it uncover in the next few decades or centuries?

Granted, speaking in tongues could be put down to a simple delusion. But healings? And there is enough people testifying to this AROUND THE WORLD that we can't dismiss it lightly. What's actually happening? I mean, sure, most of us have a friend who talks about it, and maybe he's lying, maybe he's being honest, or maybe he's deluded. But I can hardly believe that thousands of people are deluded in the same way.

As for that 'seeing future events', maybe something is happening that we simply can't explain. And like I said in the first post, I think it IS something science can explain, when it finally discovers the actual process. It's like evolution - before that, no one could actually say how the earth was created. It might have been a god, but that needed faith. Now we have an option for those who wish to believe in something factual, rather than something sentimental.

Or take metaphysics. Perhaps there is energy all around us now. It is not a 'god' as some might say, but a guiding force. It's the one that responds to prayer (there are studies done on the effectiveness of prayer), the one that responds to healing, the one that gives visions, that induces tongues, and any other amount of personal experiences of god. This would explain almost everything to do with religion. It might be nothing, or it might be the answer.

(March 11, 2009 at 7:54 pm)bozo Wrote:
(March 11, 2009 at 5:03 am)fr0d0 Wrote: I think you've covered it athoughtfulman with delusion and the God of the gaps.

I know a person I very much trust who claims to have seen physical healing happen. I seriously doubt it. I also heard Roger Forster say the same, and I struggle to doubt him, but I do. Personally I have dreams of future events. I always have. These are events in my own personal life, that I then live through. It's like re-watching a movie in true 1st person 3D LOL. I don't associate that with my Christian belief. It's almost the opposite in that it's a very strong experience to dismiss logically. I now look at it in a balanced way I think, and attribute no importance to it.

I've spoken in tongues, the baby like language as a basic expression rather than the other type, speaking in a language unknown to me that someone else in my hearing will understand. I've heard people claim to understand some apparent jibberish, but I don't believe any of those interpreters or speakers, however sincere, were actually doing so.

I'll likely regret asking, but I don't understand your last para. What are you saying? Maybe you're talking jibberish,I know not.

And before this discussion goes further, I think it's worth pointing out that if anyone has any personal experiences of their own, may they not be ridiculed. This is about intelligent discussion and atheists would do well to try and understand where religious people (or atheists with religious experience) are coming from. We will get no where by writing each other off.

If this is a go at me,thoughtful man, you are out of order. I genuinely don't understand the last para of the post. ( Frodo hasn't responded to my post so I still don't understand ).
HuhA man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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