Current time: 2nd September 2014, 05:14

Our server costs $125 a month to run. Since November 2013 we have raised $280!
Please help keep our community online by donating what you can.
Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Scientific proof for a theist.
23rd August 2011, 22:42
Post: #1
    3 years membership!
Scientific proof for a theist.
So in short I have a bunch of religious friends, today I explained to them I was an atheist, they then went on a huge rant against me. Now they're against evolution and one of them sent me this link:

http://www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html

He claims this is from scientists. Now sadly I don't have enough time to look through all of this, and this guy wants information immediately, if I come back to him with "yeah I haven't looked over it yet" he'll probably flip it up as win for religion :V. Now please understand I didn't want to argue with these guys never did I intend to, they seem to be perfectly reasonable and nice guys but I never knew they held these sort of unreasonable anti-evolutionist views, I only want them to see the facts instead of having them prance around claiming evolution is false without a strand of basic understanding, also having them call me an idiot for an hour may have been a contributing factor ^^.

On top of the website one of them posed a very simple question which was how did the first single-celled organisms or prokaryote evolve into the first stages of simple animals and different species, well actually his specific wording was "how did the first cells on earth evolve into different species, they're all identical so its impossible".

Now I know the question for prokaryote's evolution is very simple, and I bet the evidence against this 'Debunking Evolution' website is easy to come across, but the reason I'm asking you guys is because I know if I don't present the evidence correctly these guys aren't going to listen to reason and I only have one shot at this. So essentially I'm just asking for the knowledge but better presented to answer their questions, and refute this website,basically in an easy to explain manner so these guys won't resort to the cliche claims like "I don't think this counts as evidence" or "this requires the same amount of faith as religion" links are appreciated obviously linking them to this thread would kinda fuck things up majorly.

Anyway thanks guys, you're awesome Big Grin.
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
23rd August 2011, 22:57 (This post was last modified: 23rd August 2011 22:58 by Ace Otana.)
Post: #2
  3k posts!  
RE: Scientific proof for a theist.
I'm afraid, even if you could provide everything they asked with all the evidence we have, they'll still be against it. It's because it contradicts some of their religious beliefs. It's a threat to their core beliefs. No matter what you tell them, they won't listen. They'll only hear what they want to hear. I wouldn't bother with them.
Well that's just me but if you want to try and bring sense to them, good luck to ya.
They've opted for wilful, blissful ignorance. Once they go down that road, only some ever come back out of it.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Kudos given by (4): KichigaiNeko, Cinjin, Shell B, Rhythm
23rd August 2011, 23:07
Post: #3
    3 years membership!
RE: Scientific proof for a theist.
Yeah I understand that but what else am I to do? If I don't present claims against this stupid website they'll never let it go, and to be honest having them be the ones spewing the nonsense and claiming it is truth is what is so hard to let go of.
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
23rd August 2011, 23:12
Post: #4
  3k posts!  
RE: Scientific proof for a theist.
(23rd August 2011 23:07)DraxQuin Wrote:  Yeah I understand that but what else am I to do? If I don't present claims against this stupid website they'll never let it go, and to be honest having them be the ones spewing the nonsense and claiming it is truth is what is so hard to let go of.

I know what you mean, but such debates can last days. It would probably never end. They are out to attack evolution because of what it is. You could have them running if you are patient and can go into detail. I'm no expert but some on here know a lot more than I. They could help. Smile
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
23rd August 2011, 23:14 (This post was last modified: 23rd August 2011 23:21 by Rev. Rye.)
Post: #5
  2k posts! 4 years membership!
RE: Scientific proof for a theist.
Here's a few points:
* There is no barrier between "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution." They are, in fact, the same process on different scales. Indeed, actual scientists rarely, if ever, use those terms.
* There are beneficial mutations. Google Richard Lenski for just one example discovered under scientific controls.
* The fact that there is controversy as to how evolution occurs does not mean that evolution does not happen any more than the fact that there is controversy about just who shot JFK means he's still alive.
* The creationist demand for "transitional forms" will never be satisfied until we have a fossil of every life form from the first single-celled organism to Erasmus Darwin. This will not happen. In reality, every fossil is, in fact, a transitional form.
* "Living Fossils" are not disproof of evolution. They haven't changed because they haven't needed to change.
* The eye is not irreducibly complex. Even Charles Darwin acknowledged this in his Origin of Species.
* A Transitional Form would not have any parts that seem to have failed growths. If they did, they wouldn't have survived.
* The fact that the evolution of life may be more complicated than a simple "Tree of Life" does not mean life was created.
* Ernst Haeckel's embryological drawings are not considered major pieces of evidence for evolution, and were discredited after less than a decade.
* Evolution doesn't violate the second law of thermodynamics.
* Irreducible complexity doesn't work.

In case you want more detail, go to http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

Here's another point: If a person's job or religious faith depends on a person not understanding something, you can count on them not understanding it.
[Image: mybanner4a5bf6f1f1d17.png]
Rate user Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
23rd August 2011, 23:23 (This post was last modified: 23rd August 2011 23:24 by DraxQuin.)
Post: #6
    3 years membership!
RE: Scientific proof for a theist.
(23rd August 2011 23:14)Rev. Rye Wrote:  Here's a few points:
* There is no barrier between "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution." They are, in fact, the same process on different scales. Indeed, actual scientists rarely, if ever, use those terms.
* There are beneficial mutations. Google Richard Lenski for just one example discovered under scientific controls.
* The fact that there is controversy as to how evolution occurs does not mean that evolution does not happen any more than the fact that there is controversy about just who shot JFK means he's still alive.
* The creationist demand for "transitional forms" will never be satisfied until we have a fossil of every life form from the first single-celled organism to Erasmus Darwin. This will not happen. In reality, every fossil is, in fact, a transitional form.
* "Living Fossils" are not disproof of evolution. They haven't changed because they haven't needed to change.
* The eye is not irreducibly complex. Even Charles Darwin acknowledged this in his Origin of Species.
* A Transitional Form would not have any parts that seem to have failed growths. If they did, they wouldn't have survived.
* The fact that the evolution of life may be more complicated than a simple "Tree of Life" does not mean life was created.
* Ernst Haeckel's embryological drawings are not considered major pieces of evidence for evolution, and were discredited after less than a decade.
* Evolution doesn't violate the second law of thermodynamics.
* Irreducible complexity doesn't work.

In case you want more detail, go to http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

Thank you so much this is what I'm after simple points that refute these claims. More links would be appreciated.

I know it may be silly because these people won't accept my argument no matter what I say, but maybe I'm just too stubborn to accept that or just have hope that maybe just maybe they'll see reason.

Just a note they also claimed this link was from scientists which peeved me, I haven't looked at this guy who made the article, so I'm wondering where my friends got that claim from because this guy just seems like a creationist. I'm wondering if someone can answer that question for evidence on how the first simple cell organisms evolved, because as my friend said they were identical so how would differentiation occur.
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
23rd August 2011, 23:31
Post: #7
  16k posts! 3 years membership!
RE: Scientific proof for a theist.
Invite them to this forum.
“I find something repulsive about the idea of vicarious redemption. I would not throw my numberless sins onto a scapegoat and expect them to pass from me" - Christopher Hitchens.
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Kudos given by (3): frankiej, Kayenneh, Shell B
23rd August 2011, 23:32
Post: #8
  2k posts! 4 years membership!
RE: Scientific proof for a theist.
I've just looked at this guy, his name is John MIchael Fischer. I can't find any information on whether or not he even has a degree.
However, there's quite a few other dubious ideas he's been trying to propogate:
* Continental drift is the consequence of an asteroid impact.
* The Shroud of Turin is real.
* The Luminiferous Aether really exists.
* Theodicy. (Yes, on a "scientific" page.)

And here, I leave you with an XKCD comic:
[Image: XKCDonCreationism.jpg]
[Image: mybanner4a5bf6f1f1d17.png]
Rate user Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
23rd August 2011, 23:44 (This post was last modified: 23rd August 2011 23:48 by DraxQuin.)
Post: #9
    3 years membership!
RE: Scientific proof for a theist.
Heh brilliant comic, the thing is my friends are extremely reasonable and intelligent in every other regard (I guess there are quite a few religious people like that) I can tell they don't believe what they're talking about, I know that may be silly to infer but the way my friends were debating with me and fighting amongst each other I could tell some were extremely unconvinced by some of the claims my other friend (who gave the link) put out.

Thanks for the info on this guy, wow holy shit he believes some crazy stuff that will definitely lower his validity greatly in these guys eyes, at-least I would hope so Sad. Still wondering if he has a degree or what his academic background is.

Also can you guys answer this question he posed, I could answer it but I want strong scientific knowledge behind it like a lab experiment showing how this would occur, going in there with yes X process causes this will make them go "well that X process is false herp derp":

"how did the first cells on earth evolve into different species,all cells would be identical so its impossible for any kind of variation to occur".

I can see the arguments already, like why doesn't bacteria today evolve (as silly as the why are chimps still chimps argument).
(23rd August 2011 23:31)Rhythm Wrote:  Invite them to this forum.

They would claim this as a bias source, laughable how ironic that is given their source.

Anyhow I thought I wouldn't mention this as I'm trying to keep these guys anonymity, but these guys are muslims.
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
23rd August 2011, 23:49
Post: #10
  3k posts!  
RE: Scientific proof for a theist.
Seen any Symphony of Science vids? I loves'em.


Good eye opener. Big Grin
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  A Scientific Response to Creationist on: Kinds Metazoa Zeke 28 592 27th April 2014 13:45
Last Post: Metazoa Zeke
  Proof of the soul? JesusLover1 50 1609 6th March 2014 16:23
Last Post: pocaracas
  UK Now officially mostly non-theist là bạn điên 20 1304 28th December 2013 20:36
Last Post: Stimbo
  Walking the a/theist line with family & friends atheistmama 9 727 5th December 2013 15:09
Last Post: zenblaster
Tongue Looking for a word to describe someone who is not a theist. Ideas? whateverist 18 1193 28th November 2013 01:06
Last Post: whateverist
  I am an Agnostic Theist Flair128512 26 2115 19th October 2013 09:05
Last Post: pineapplebunnybounce
  Highest up former theist? Brian37 9 942 26th September 2013 13:49
Last Post: Doubting Thomas
Wink Proof that God(s) can not exist. way12go 19 2069 19th August 2013 02:22
Last Post: bennyboy
  Scientific Morality! It's about time! Magnum 58 4688 8th August 2013 19:01
Last Post: Mister Agenda
  Questions: atheist/theist friends pineapplebunnybounce 22 2002 19th July 2013 08:24
Last Post: fr0d0



User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)