Does God Exist: The Argument From Evil?

[Kyuuketsuki]

OK, I don't actually accept the idea of evil in a spiritual sense, if I do it means we aren't under control of what we do and I genuinely believe in personal responsibility (even if were as much driven as drivers) and if there genuinely were evil forces in the world that infect and affect people then one can excuse Hitler and his appalling cronies the crimes they carried out because they cannot be responsible for them. So I don't personally believe in evil in that sense, I look at the world and I pretty much say sh** happens lots of it we can't do much about, much of it we do to ourselves but on the plus side we can also do good things and good things happen without our intervention (granted that good things are often evaluated against bad things and vice versa and that much of what is good or bad is because we have evolved to fit certain environments).

It does however, seem that the problem of evil is a serious one for Christians given that (they claim) their god is all powerful (omnipotent), all knowing (omniscient) and all-loving ... how can one explain away the fact that there is evil in the world weighing that against a god of that nature?

Here's an example from the Daylight Atheism blog:

Quote:A World in Shadow VI
In 2006 and 2007, I wrote several entries in a series called A World in Shadow, bolstering the atheist's argument from evil by describing particularly shocking or egregious instances of natural and moral evils. However, I haven't written any new entries for this series in some time.

To be honest, I stopped writing these posts because I found them too upsetting. There are more than enough - far too many - examples of tragedy and catastrophe in this world to make the case against a benevolent overseer; we need not dwell on them. But today, I have to make just one further exception. I don't like writing about these things, but this is one case where the tragedy is so shattering, the suffering so horrendous, and the action needed to stop it so trivial, that it perfectly sums up and encapsulates the argument from evil.

I'll begin where Gene Weingarten begins, from his March 8 article in the Washington Post:

The defendant was an immense man, well over 300 pounds, but in the gravity of his sorrow and shame he seemed larger still. He hunched forward in the sturdy wooden armchair that barely contained him, sobbing softly into tissue after tissue, a leg bouncing nervously under the table. In the first pew of spectators sat his wife, looking stricken, absently twisting her wedding band. The room was a sepulcher. Witnesses spoke softly of events so painful that many lost their composure. When a hospital emergency room nurse described how the defendant had behaved after the police first brought him in, she wept.

This ordinary man, Miles Harrison, was a loving father who made an irrevocable mistake: on his way in to work one day last summer, distracted and beset by daily trivialities, he forgot to drop off his infant son at daycare. He entered his office, leaving the child still strapped into his car seat in the parking lot. And over nine hours, on a sweltering July day, the temperatures inside the car rose until the boy slowly boiled to death.

[Read The Rest Of The Blog Entry Here]

How can one explain this? For an atheist it's easy ... I'm not writing the child's life off as valueless but as I say above sh** happens, the parents weren't blameless but they weren't bad, they just made a mistake but "God" (if he exists) could have done something about it, a nudge just before Miles Harrison got out of the car, a mental whisper in his head a little later, hell he could even have reached back through time and sorted the whole problem but no ... nothing, not a thing!

How can a loving god do that? It can't be that it couldn't do it otherwise it wouldn't be omnipotent. It can't be that it didn't know otherwise it wouldn't be omniscient. So all we are left with is that it didn't care or it doesn't exist.

It's a tough, uncaring universe out there and I know which explanation I favour.

Kyu

[Eilonnwy]

The world works exactly as it would be expected to if there was no god.

That said, the contradiction is obvious to us but not obvious to Christians. I had a discussion with someone who told me that people suffer because of free will and in the same breath said it was god's plan, everything happens for a reason. It's a "have it both ways" argument that I used to buy into and it's amazing how hard it is for Christian's to grasp the contradiction.

What it comes down to is that everyday people whoa re not theologians believe free will means evil people exist and suffering is a way of being closer to god. (Mother Theresa anyone?) They think that God plans everything for good people and even though you can't possibly comprehend why your child died it's all in God's plan and good will come. And yet if you daughter was murdered by some evil man it's his free will that did it. You can argue till your face turns blue and people will still not see the contradiction.

[dagda]

Isaiah 45:7 'I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.' KJV. God is not all loving; He just says He is. Neither is He perfect for he has regret (Gen 6:7) and to have regret is to make mistakes. Perfection means no mistakes. What we have to take into account is that God may not be telling the entire truth.

[Kyuuketsuki]

(25th March 2009 20:53)dagda Wrote:  Isaiah 45:7 'I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.' KJV. God is not all loving; He just says He is. Neither is He perfect for he has regret (Gen 6:7) and to have regret is to make mistakes. Perfection means no mistakes. What we have to take into account is that God may not be telling the entire truth.

So why do Christians worship such evil or do do they just cherry-pick as usual?

Kyu

[athoughtfulman]

I think they just need justification for their belief. When there is a fact which seems to conflict with their faith (ie. the presence of evil), they pick and choose ideas and beliefs so they can continue believing. Their faith is so precious to them that they can't bear to face the fact that there is evil and god isn't doing anything about it. It's foolish and ignorant. The least they could do is face up to it and figure out a proper argument for why there is evil in the world.

[padraic]

(25th March 2009 20:53)dagda Wrote:  . What we have to take into account is that God may not be telling the entire truth.

I think I'll stick to the notion the contradictions and lack of evidence make it more likely that there simply is no god..

[dagda]

(26th March 2009 06:56)padraic Wrote:  

(25th March 2009 20:53)dagda Wrote:  . What we have to take into account is that God may not be telling the entire truth.

I think I'll stick to the notion the contradictions and lack of evidence make it more likely that there simply is no god..

If I tell you a big lie about eating your cake and then contradict myself repeatedly, you are going to question my story not my personal existence. Lack of proof is a good reason not to belive in God, contradictions by Him are not.

'So why do Christians worship such evil or do do they just cherry-pick as usual? '


Its the biggest con in human history; that God is all-loving.

[Kyuuketsuki]

(26th March 2009 16:50)dagda Wrote:  If I tell you a big lie about eating your cake and then contradict myself repeatedly, you are going to question my story not my personal existence. Lack of proof is a good reason not to belive in God, contradictions by Him are not.

I'd say it was a pretty good one actually ... if your god was trying to relay a message to future potential believers you'd thunk he'da dun it with a bit more sodding style and accuracy wouldn't ya?

(26th March 2009 16:50)dagda Wrote:  Its the biggest con in human history; that God is all-loving.

The whole God thing is a con IMO.

Kyu

[dagda]

That is the problem with the bible; its the word of God writen by the hand of man and we screw up alot. There have been enough translations, copies, misunderstandings and passages writen on hersay that the original message could have concivably been don't buy time shares and we would not know. Even devout belivers should take the bible with a pinch of salt.

[Giff]

There are no god, it's a creation of peoples imagination.