Near-Death Experiences (NDEs), Souls, and Atheism

[Willpower]

Background---If you do not know what NDEs are, consider learning a bit about them briefly by watching:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlwyU0_M8...plpp_video

The person in the video above is a professor of Neurosurgery at Harvard University. In 2008, he contracted a rare form of bacterial meningitis--a disease that ate away at his brain. It caused his neocortex (the part of the brain that makes us human) to shut down and he fell into a deep coma. During his coma, he had an NDE. In this NDE, he felt his soul/consciousness soar into the universe. Amidst this, he experienced a profound sense of Love and God's presence.

After 7 days of virtual brain death, he came out of his coma with vivid memories of this NDE.

Medically inexplicably, within a month of this NDE, his disease completely vanished and he was completely back to normal.

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Regarding the biological theories attempting to explain Near-Death Experiences (you can find these explanations in skeptic forums, on Wikipedia, or elsewhere online) as "hallucinations" and the similar, my question is:

How can our brains create such long and vivid "hallucinations," when there is absolutely no electrical brain activity in many NDE scenarios, such as those of persons who experience cardiac arrest (--where the EEG goes completely flat)? Can our brain function without any electrical pulse? Furthermore, in such scenarios, how it could function unimpaired and to such a great degree that it can create such a strong and memorable, often life-changing experience? How could we even formulate memories while having absolutely no brain activity?
I can't see the reason and logic behind the biological theories that attempt to explain NDEs; in fact, I find them to contra-scientific, if anything (they assert a "brain function despite-the-lack-of brain activity" idea). I know that atheists deny the existence of the soul. I am left to question:

--How can our brains function to create such vivid and memorable "hallucinations," in cases where there is absolutely no brain activity?

[Norfolk And Chance]

The thing is, there is only no activity in your brain when you are BRAIN DEAD, and nobody has came back from that. You can be in cardiac arrest and in a coma and still have some brain activity.

[Justtristo]

I voted no on the basis, that experiences very similar to NDE's have been showed to result from a cut off of oxygen to the brain. I remember some research which was done on people who were subjected to high g forces in centrifuges.



This is what a centrifuge is, if anybody wondered.

[Norfolk And Chance]

Also, we only have the professor's word that he had absolutely NO brain activity during his coma (I'm not a medic so need to check if that is even possible outwith brain death), and we only have the professor's word that his hallucination was long lasting. This is not evidence but anecdote.

The hallucination may have been fleeting during a spike of brain activity and he remembers it differently.

I read of a hospital that left a message above one of the lights in an operating theatre after somebody claimed to have had an OOBE (this phenomena seems related to NDE to me). They hoped that somebody else would have a similar experience, float to the ceiling and read the message. So far...no luck. But if ever somebody did read it, it would be strong evidence.

On another subject, I've several times had dreams where I've felt like I've floated to the ceiling, and manouvered around - it's always dark and I can't see anything. Anybody else ever had that? Also, as a child, spinning around on my bed.

[Minimalist]

Near-Death Experiences

The chasm between "near-death" and "death" is vast.

[IATIA]

NDE and 'god-like' experiences can all be simulated in a laboratory environment using drugs and electricity amongst others.

[Epimethean]

The person in the video above is a professor of Neurosurgery at Harvard University. In 2008, he contracted a rare form of bacterial meningitis--a disease that ate away at his brain. It caused his neocortex (the part of the brain that makes us human) to shut down and he fell into a deep coma. During his coma, he had an NDE. In this NDE, he felt his soul/consciousness soar into the universe. Amidst this, he experienced a profound sense of Love and God's presence.


Let's focus on an important line up above, and see its connection to religious feelings:

"In 2008, he contracted a rare form of bacterial meningitis--a disease that ate away at his brain."

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

The thing is, there is only no activity in your brain when you are BRAIN DEAD

I understand that is the scientific consensus and I agree it is probably the case. However,we may not assert "there is no brain activity once a person is brain dead". The claim is a tautology. First comes no MEASURABLE brain activity,THEN comes the declaration of brain death.Yes, it's probably the case, I believe it to be the case failing credible evidence to the contrary.


NDE may in fact indicate life after death. I do not believe that to be the case and indeed think it's highly unlikely.However, I'm unable to make a claim of certainty.Neither is science.

[Willpower]

I see there may have been some confusion. I was posting a video to explain what NDE is. But my question is distinct from "brain-dead" or "virtual brain death" cases like the one in the video that I posted; My question is with regards to *cardiac arrest* patients whose brain activity does indeed fall flat, as even measured by EEG.

There is absolutely no brain function in these cases.
(Search google: The Brain During Cardiac Arrest.)
"After the heart stops beating due to a significant reduction of blood flow, the pressures across the entire body and within the arteries and the veins reach a point in which they equalise within approximately 50 seconds. Studies have shown that due to a lack of heart beat and blood flow there is a cessation of brain electrical activity within approximately 10 seconds. This simply reflects a lack of brain function that is brought about due to a lack of blood flow into the brain. Brain oxygen levels are then depleted within approximately 2 minutes and if the blood flow is not restarted to the brain, the cells start to undergo changes which will ultimately lead to cell damage and then cell death. The first thing that happens is that the brain cells undergo a state of shock and this is brought about by a lack of oxygen."

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RE: "The thing is, there is only no activity in your brain when you are BRAIN DEAD, and nobody has came back from that. You can be in cardiac arrest and in a coma and still have some brain activity."
--Actually, people have come back from being brain-dead in certain miraculous scnearios. I have a video illustrating such a case, if you would like to see it let me know and i'll send you the link. Furthermore, research shows that you *don't* have an brain activity when you are in cardiac arrest, as demonstrated by the EEG.

RE: "I voted no on the basis, that experiences very similar to NDE's have been showed to result from a cut off of oxygen to the brain. I remember some research which was done on people who were subjected to high g forces in centrifuges."
--The video in my original post (above) discusses some of the problems with those centrifuge scenarios and how they are distinct from NDEs. For a few distinctions, in the centrifuge scenarios: people do not meet desceased loved ones, they do not meet "supreme beings" (or demons) or receive a profound sensation of love, nor do they ever receive a complicated perception of a body soaring through layers of space (universe) and the likewise. The only similarities are that they perceive light and attain a disoriented perception of consciousness (similar, in only minute respects, to OBEs), but it never goes beyond that. Also, people in these centrifuge scenarios never experience what people have termed "negative/hellish NDEs." There are too many key distinctions between a real NDE and the centrifuge scenario.

RE: "we only have the professor's word that he had absolutely NO brain activity during his coma (I'm not a medic so need to check if that is even possible outwith brain death), and we only have the professor's word that his hallucination was long lasting."
--He stated that his brain is virtually dead, yet he still experienced a vivid and complex NDE while in his brain-deteriorating meningitis coma. But that wasn't what I was referring to in the question that I posed. The question that I posed was regarding "cardiac arrest" cases. In these cases, the heart stops beating, the person stops breathing, and measurable brain activity (as measured by an EEG) drops to zero. There is absolutely no difference between a person who has these symptoms, and a person who has been dead for 4 weeks, except the degree of decay that their body has undergone. The fact that people are able to be revived does not negate that they are physiologically dead. There is no physiological distinction between the two here in this case. If there is no brain activity, it is surprising that the person is able to have such a vivid and memorable experience. Even when we are living and dreaming or hallucinating, there is measurable brain activity. There is none, however, in the case of these cardiac arrest patients and the similar.

RE: "The hallucination may have been fleeting during a spike of brain activity and he remembers it differently."
--It wasn't a fleeting experience. He described from being on earth, to soaring through the clouds, to expanding out toward the center of the universe, as the video depicts. But this is aside from my question, anyway. My question was regarding cardiac arrest patients, who actually have no measurable degree of brain activity over a prolonged period of time.

RE: "NDE and 'god-like' experiences can all be simulated in a laboratory environment using drugs and electricity amongst others."
--As I just discussed, those simulations fall short of many of NDEs' key distinctions. Furthermore, people in those scenarios still retain a measurable degree of brain activity. Cardiac arrest patients, on the other hand, have none (EEG goes completely flat). Yet they still somehow attain a long and vivid experience.


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I would also like to add something regarding cardiac arrest patients: for every minute a patient stays in cardiac arrest, their chances of survival drop by roughly 10%. Furthermore, brain injury is likely if cardiac arrest goes untreated for more than five minutes. Yet many NDE experiencers were people who were in cardiac arrest more than half an hour. There are cases where a person came back to life as the sheet was being thrown over his/her head. They return with no brain injury, but with an extremely vivid and memorable NDE.

Ultimately, I still don't see how a person with no measurable degree of brain activity (such as cardiac arrest patients), could create such vivid "hallucinations."

[Shell B]

A matter of contention for me with your OP is that you wonder how one can hallucinate while in cardiac arrest when the EEG shows nothing.

My question for you is, why the fuck would they have an EEG set up when treating for cardiac arrest? You also imply that cardiac arrest is equal to no brain activity.

Allow me to reiterate Norfolk's previous post. When there is no brain activity, you are dead, not near-dead, not almost dead, not maybe dying, you are fucking dead. With no brain activity, your other organs would fail. If you are in a coma, you have brain activity or you would not be in a coma.

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The question that I posed was regarding "cardiac arrest" cases. In these cases, the heart stops beating, the person stops breathing, and measurable brain activity (as measured by an EEG) drops to zero. There is absolutely no difference between a person who has these symptoms, and a person who has been dead for 4 weeks, except the degree of decay that their body has undergone.

Baloney sandwich. There is a huge difference.

From Wikipedia, it's as good as any source for this thread, I would think:

EEG has several limitations. Most important is its poor spatial resolution. EEG is most sensitive to a particular set of post-synaptic potentials: those generated in superficial layers of the cortex, on the crests of gyri directly abutting the skull and radial to the skull. Dendrites, which are deeper in the cortex, inside sulci, in midline or deep structures (such as the cingulate gyrus or hippocampus), or producing currents that are tangential to the skull, have far less contribution to the EEG signal.
The meninges, cerebrospinal fluid and skull "smear" the EEG signal, obscuring its intracranial source.

A four week dead person is definitely dead. Furthermore, I really need to have you link a case where a person went into cardiac arrest, was measured as not breathing, clinically brain dead and had no heart beat for enough time to have a "long hallucination" as you have described. By long, you must mean a matter of seconds or very few minutes. You cannot have a "long hallucination" that can be described as a NDE if you are not dead for very long.