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(November 12, 2010 at 9:26 pm)coffeeveritas Wrote:
I saw a lot of people quoting people who were quoting other people who were quoting themselves who were quoting another person. It's very "meta" but I lost track of what was going on. At this point we should probably just see how many quotes within quotes we can get before the system crashes.
(November 12, 2010 at 7:52 pm)Strongbad Wrote: I think that most atheists became atheists over a long period of deep thinking, not all-of-a-sudden or based on some single proof or event. Evidently, a science education also leads to atheism, as the vast majority of all scientists share atheist viewpoints.
I’d like to turn this question back on you – why are you a Christian? Why do you believe that the bible is the word of god? Why don’t you believe that the Quran is the word of god?
I’ll defer the philosophy questions to the philosophers.
Why am I a Christian? Let me see, that's a big story. Actually I started off really legalistic Christian, but it never made a lot of sense to me, and it seemed like the Bible constantly contradicted itself. Also, God seemed like kind of jerk, and going to church was like being shot in the leg in slow motion, over and over. So I deconverted, to being a Christian Disciple (by which I mean just reading the Gospels, and doing what Jesus says to do). To me Christian Discipleship did the best job out of any worldview in making sense out of the world and how to live in it. For me for something to be true it has to hang together on many levels: it has to be logically true, internally consistent, it cannot contradict science, it has to be true on a personal/subjective level, it has to be evident in human history and in my community, and it has to reveal a clear way to live and act accordingly. Now it's true that the legalist/fundamentalist worldview didn't pass these criteria, but finding Christian Discipleship was like suddenly tying together all the loose strands in the world that never made sense to me before. It was consistent with every method I had of perceiving truth and reality, I couldn't deny it. It wasn't just that it made sense either, Discipleship gave my life meaning and helped me overcome many personal struggles. For me Discipleship does nothing but good for the world, and it actually tells us that our mission in life is to make like a superhero and save the world. Well, there's a lot to it, but basically I believe it because it's just true on every level.
Ok, I understand that you are a Christian Disciple. I assume that this also means that you believe that the Gospels are the "word of god". Why do you believe this?
"If there are gaps they are in our knowledge, not in things themselves." Chapman Cohen
"Shit-apples don't fall far from the shit-tree, Randy." Mr. Lahey
(November 12, 2010 at 9:38 pm)Strongbad Wrote: Ok, I understand that you are a Christian Disciple. I assume that this also means that you believe that the Gospels are the "word of god". Why do you believe this?
I appreciate your interest Strongbad! Rest assured, I am typing out an answer but so far it seems I have a tad too much material, and it's getting late. I'll have to give some thought as how to answer this succinctly and without making my answer sound like a debate. In general I'm just trying to understand my good friends in the atheist community, and perhaps make that understanding mutual, so I try not to be antagonistic when stating my views, though I know they seem radical to you. I'll try to finish my reply up tomorrow with some fresh eyes.
(One thing I have noticed since coming here is that we just about agree on everything.)
(November 12, 2010 at 8:56 pm)Chuck Wrote: Would that interpretation of non-contingent truth be analogous to "red light means stop" whether there is anything to stop, or any meaningful definition of stop? If so, then non-contingent truth must be contingent upon the mind because the very notion of its non-contingency exists only as a concept in the mind.
No, "red light means stop" is a concept, you have to know the concept before a red light means stop, otherwise it's just a red light on a poll.
(November 12, 2010 at 7:54 pm)Cando Wrote: I'm sure many believe that they both are.
Are you implying that many people believe that both the bible and the quran are the word of god? Do you personally know any Islamic Christians, or are you just guessing that there are plenty of them around?
Of course I'm implying that there are many people who believe they both are. That's why I said it. Go to a mosque, ask a muslim f they believe in the bible, and they will say "yes, and islam is the next and final step in god's revelation". They will also tell you that in islam, there are 144,000 prophets. The first is Adam, the penultimate (second from last) is Jesus, and the last is Muhammad. It is a myth that islam and christianity are worlds apart. A fact that is clearly unknown to you.
I see. If I ask a Muslim if they believe in the bible, specifically, if they believe that Jesus was the son of god and that he died for their sins and that the only way to get into heaven is to accept Jesus as their savior – they will say “yes, this is what I believe – it is a myth that Islam and Christianity are worlds apart”. I guess another fact that is also unknown to me is that Muslims and Christians have been killing each other, because of their respective religious beliefs, for centuries.
Learn to read. That is not what I said. Can I ask how old you are?
(November 12, 2010 at 7:54 pm)Cando Wrote: I'm sure many believe that they both are.
Are you implying that many people believe that both the bible and the quran are the word of god? Do you personally know any Islamic Christians, or are you just guessing that there are plenty of them around?
Of course I'm implying that there are many people who believe they both are. That's why I said it. Go to a mosque, ask a muslim f they believe in the bible, and they will say "yes, and islam is the next and final step in god's revelation". They will also tell you that in islam, there are 144,000 prophets. The first is Adam, the penultimate (second from last) is Jesus, and the last is Muhammad. It is a myth that islam and christianity are worlds apart. A fact that is clearly unknown to you.
I see. If I ask a Muslim if they believe in the bible, specifically, if they believe that Jesus was the son of god and that he died for their sins and that the only way to get into heaven is to accept Jesus as their savior – they will say “yes, this is what I believe – it is a myth that Islam and Christianity are worlds apart”. I guess another fact that is also unknown to me is that Muslims and Christians have been killing each other, because of their respective religious beliefs, for centuries.
Learn to read. That is not what I said. Can I ask how old you are?
My age is irrelevant. When you said "Go to a mosque, ask a muslim f they believe in the bible, and they will say "yes, and islam is the next and final step in god's revelation", I read that to mean that you think Muslims "believe in the bible". I assume that what you really meant is that Muslims choose to believe only certain parts of the bible (and certainly not the part about Jesus being the son of god), and they choose to disbelieve the rest of the bible. Is this why you claim that Islam and Christianity are not worlds apart? Can you explain why Christians and Muslims kill each other?
"If there are gaps they are in our knowledge, not in things themselves." Chapman Cohen
"Shit-apples don't fall far from the shit-tree, Randy." Mr. Lahey
November 13, 2010 at 11:06 am (This post was last modified: November 13, 2010 at 11:07 am by Skipper.)
Correct me if im wrong, but Muslims use the old testament as part of their books and believe Jesus was a prophet but don't buy into the KEY elements of the bible such as Jesus being the messiah who came to earth and died for our sins then was resserected and ascended to heaven.
It's like saying I believe Harry Potter to be the truth. Except for the part that they are all wizards and witches.
(November 12, 2010 at 8:26 pm)Strongbad Wrote: Are you implying that many people believe that both the bible and the quran are the word of god? Do you personally know any Islamic Christians, or are you just guessing that there are plenty of them around?
Of course I'm implying that there are many people who believe they both are. That's why I said it. Go to a mosque, ask a muslim f they believe in the bible, and they will say "yes, and islam is the next and final step in god's revelation". They will also tell you that in islam, there are 144,000 prophets. The first is Adam, the penultimate (second from last) is Jesus, and the last is Muhammad. It is a myth that islam and christianity are worlds apart. A fact that is clearly unknown to you.
I see. If I ask a Muslim if they believe in the bible, specifically, if they believe that Jesus was the son of god and that he died for their sins and that the only way to get into heaven is to accept Jesus as their savior – they will say “yes, this is what I believe – it is a myth that Islam and Christianity are worlds apart”. I guess another fact that is also unknown to me is that Muslims and Christians have been killing each other, because of their respective religious beliefs, for centuries.
Learn to read. That is not what I said. Can I ask how old you are?
My age is irrelevant. When you said "Go to a mosque, ask a muslim f they believe in the bible, and they will say "yes, and islam is the next and final step in god's revelation", I read that to mean that you think Muslims "believe in the bible". I assume that what you really meant is that Muslims choose to believe only certain parts of the bible (and certainly not the part about Jesus being the son of god), and they choose to disbelieve the rest of the bible. Is this why you claim that Islam and Christianity are not worlds apart? Can you explain why Christians and Muslims kill each other?
Well catholics and protestants kill each other and have been for centuries.
It seems that the closer the beliefs the more violent the confrontation.
In religion its the small details that lead to the biggest rifts, no idea why.
(November 13, 2010 at 11:06 am)Skipper Wrote: Correct me if im wrong, but Muslims use the old testament as part of their books and believe Jesus was a prophet but don't buy into the KEY elements of the bible such as Jesus being the messiah who came to earth and died for our sins then was resserected and ascended to heaven.
It's like saying I believe Harry Potter to be the truth. Except for the part that they are all wizards and witches.
Quote:I saw a lot of people quoting people who were quoting other people who were quoting themselves who were quoting another person. It's very "meta" but I lost track of what was going on. At this point we should probably just see how many quotes within quotes we can get before the system crashes.
I actually hate that too....but the system seems designed to allow it to go on ad infinitum.
