Hi, I'm a Christian. Help Me Disprove My Religion!

[robvalue]

I...

If Lord of the rings went into first person for a chapter, would that make that chapter an eye witness account?

[Aractus]

We are not talking about fiction. The genre of fiction had not been invented at the time. There were no novels. You might question what are 'fictitious elements', but that's not the same.

What I've consistently expressed is the point of view of historians who do the work to work out what is history and what is embellishment.

Novels can be written in first or third person. But ancient works are written in different styles pertaining to whether they are recording contemporary or ancient records. This is noted by scholars and used as a tool to help determine what the author "knows" and what they were "told".

[robvalue]

People were incapable of making things up? Is that seriously what you're saying? Or that they'd be so gracious as to make this apparent to future scholars?

The fact that the stories in chronological order grow ever more elaborate points to the fact that making things up is exactly what they were doing. Not to mention all the angels and other crap like that.

[pocaracas]

I wonder... When did Plato write about Atlantis?

[Aractus]

People were incapable of making things up? Is that seriously what you're saying?

No that's not what I'm saying and I'll thank you not to make further strawmans.

[robvalue]

You said the genre of fiction did not exist. In other words, people didn't make up and write down stories. Apologies if I misrepresented this. That's still a fantastical claim, especially considering the amount of evidence of writings from that time that would have been lost since then, ie. almost all of it.

I did politely ask back on page 5 for the HJ crew to take it elsewhere, as I knew this would happen as soon as the magic word Carrier was mentioned. 21 pages later, I think we scared off the OP.

I don't know why people are so sure Lord of the Rings is fiction anyway. Oh sure, it's easy to just announce things are fiction so you don't have to prove the things in them didn't happen.

Well, we all have our own standards of evidence. If that's all it takes to convince you something is an eye witness report, I can't stop you.

Enjoy your bible

[Aractus]

You said the genre of fiction did not exist. In other words, people didn't make up and write down stories.

I said that the genre of fiction did not exist. I did NOT say that people didn't make things up and write them down. I said they didn't do that AND present it as fiction. The closest thing that existed to fiction at the time was poetry.

I did politely ask back on page 5 for the HJ crew to take it elsewhere, as I knew this would happen as soon as the magic word Carrier is mentioned. 21 pages later, I think we scared off the OP.

I don't know why people are so sure Lord of the Rings is fiction anyway. Oh sure, it's easy to just announce things are fiction so you don't have to prove the things in them didn't happen.

Well, we all have our own standards of evidence. If that's all it takes to convince you something is an eye witness report, I can't stop you.

YOU are the one who brought up Carrier and cited him in the first place, unless you've forgotten.

Your "standard of evidence" is irrelevant because you are not a historian. And the historian you cite - Richard Carrier - is considered a wackjob by his own peers. As a non-expert the only thing you are qualified to do is cite the experts. The experts - Hurtado, Ehrman, etc. all say that the evidence that Jesus existed is insurmountable, and all of them deny the prospect that the letter of Paul are "fiction". So if you're going to make that claim - which you have done several times now - you are the one who needs to provide evidence in the form of a contemporary expert who agrees with you and who isn't Carrier.

Your so-called "standards of evidence" are fucking nonsense. You want to listen to one person only and ignore all other scholars.

Citing Richard Carrier is no different to citing Ron Wyatt, or do you really not understand this??

[robvalue]

Why do you always have to get so angry about Jesus?

Anyhow, thanks and bye.

[Aractus]

I get angry whenever I'm strawmanned. Citing Carrier and then instructing people not to question it is no different from someone citing Wyatt and telling people not to say anything. Even with Ehrman you need to be careful with what you cite as he's been saying stuff he isn't qualified to have an opinion on (and it's been pointed out and disputed by his colleagues).

I gave a detailed analysis of the video you posted, and you chose not to respond at all. Instead you come back and deliberately misrepresent "my position". In the first century no one anywhere in the world had EVER written a novel. If you have evidence to counter that statement then produce it.

[pocaracas]

In the first century no one anywhere in the world had EVER written a novel. If you have evidence to counter that statement then produce it.

I posed a question, a few posts above...
Here is the answer:


Taken from http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/lostc...lantis.htm

The story of Atlantis comes to us from Timaeus, a Socratic dialogue, written in about 360 B.C. by Plato. There are four people at this meeting who had met the previous day to hear Socrates describes the ideal state. Socrates wants Timaeus of Locri, Hermocrates, and Critias to tell him stories about Athens interacting with other states.

[...]

And now for Plato's account of Atlantis as translated by Benjamin Jowett.

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia.
...

If this is not fiction... I know not what fiction is...