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RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 7:34 pm
(This post was last modified: February 22, 2013 at 7:52 pm by fr0d0.)
(February 22, 2013 at 7:22 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote: He is either omnipotent or immutable. Which is it? Your objection is illogical. If God could change would he make himself flawed? Can perfection change to become imperfect? I don't find that challenging at all.
(February 22, 2013 at 7:33 pm)Ryantology Wrote: Quote:Were not working backwards here. Were working forwards.
Demonstrate a direct line of reasoning from "I have no idea why the universe exists" to "The God I believe in (and no other), which certainly exists beyond time and space, certainly made the universe for specific reasons". 1. You speak like my mind is closed on this. It isn't. I have found a satisfactory answer that makes more sense than any other. All other ideas are open for consideration.
2. Basics: positive behavior yeilds positive results > a positive purpose to existence trumps a neutral purpose > what happens if we assume a positive purpose > positive purpose assumed > life quality increased > life is neutral and not positive > deity restores life = positive > deity adopted > life quality increased
"Certainty", in the way I think you mean it, is never an option in theology. You're still thinking in scientific terms. Like you have to know without doubt that a God exists. You cannot.
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RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 8:24 pm
(February 22, 2013 at 7:34 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: [quote='Baalzebutt' pid='405070' dateline='1361575336']
He is either omnipotent or immutable. Which is it? Your objection is illogical. If God could change would he make himself flawed? Can perfection change to become imperfect? I don't find that challenging at all.
[/qoute]
Not illogical at all. Immutability says he can't change, omnipotence says he can change. Perfect or not, these two absolutely cannot coexist. He must be one or the other.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -Einstein
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RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 8:30 pm
Can God lift a rock too heavy to lift/ can an all powerful, unchanging God not change. Spot the difference.
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RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 8:36 pm
(February 22, 2013 at 7:34 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: 2. Basics: positive behavior yeilds positive results > a positive purpose to existence trumps a neutral purpose > what happens if we assume a positive purpose > positive purpose assumed > life quality increased > life is neutral and not positive > deity restores life = positive > deity adopted > life quality increased
That was not what I asked for at all, and the very first item is incorrect. Positive behavior frequently yields negative results.
Quote:"Certainty", in the way I think you mean it, is never an option in theology. You're still thinking in scientific terms. Like you have to know without doubt that a God exists. You cannot.
I'm not asking for you to demonstrate absolute certainty, but the certainty you feel. What has convinced you that you have the best answer among those you've considered? If your reasoning is sharp, it should sound convincing to someone who disagrees, and it should feel as true for me as it does for you.
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RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 8:55 pm
(This post was last modified: February 22, 2013 at 8:55 pm by fr0d0.)
You obviously don't understand faith then. If this knowledge were transferable, we could bypass faith and belief and all just know one way or another.
I can hopefully help explain the information to you so that you have the most accurate understanding of it. When you feel able to trust all of it to be true, as i do, then you have the option to act upon that trust and try it out for yourself. You will then have reached a position of faith. You will understand my point of view, as a believer.
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RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 9:07 pm
(February 22, 2013 at 7:34 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: 2. Basics: positive behavior yeilds positive results > a positive purpose to existence trumps a neutral purpose > what happens if we assume a positive purpose > positive purpose assumed > life quality increased > life is neutral and not positive > deity restores life = positive > deity adopted > life quality increased
"Certainty", in the way I think you mean it, is never an option in theology. You're still thinking in scientific terms. Like you have to know without doubt that a God exists. You cannot.
So you're of the opinion that believing a lie that makes you feel good is the best course of action? Despite the detrimental effects it can potentially have on your life and on those around you?
If you believe it, question it. If you question it, get an answer. If you have an answer, does that answer satisfy reality? Does it satisfy you? Probably not. For no one else will agree with you, not really.
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RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 9:22 pm
(February 22, 2013 at 8:30 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Can God lift a rock too heavy to lift/ can an all powerful, unchanging God not change. Spot the difference.
While I appreciate your reinforcement of my argument, you haven't answered the question. How do you get around the innate contradiction in the powers you endow you're god with?
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -Einstein
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RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 9:43 pm
(February 22, 2013 at 8:55 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You obviously don't understand faith then. If this knowledge were transferable, we could bypass faith and belief and all just know one way or another.
I'm not asking for you to transfer your knowledge. I am asking for your A-Z line of reasoning which leads you, personally, to believe that there is an all-powerful god, not subject to any natural laws, which governs the universe he created.
You repeatedly insist that your faith is the result of your reasoning. I am simply curious to see the progression of your reason as you apply it starting from a state of complete ignorance to the result you believe is true.
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RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 9:55 pm
I've asked for this as well, but you do seem curiously unwilling to give what your reasoning is.
If you believe it, question it. If you question it, get an answer. If you have an answer, does that answer satisfy reality? Does it satisfy you? Probably not. For no one else will agree with you, not really.
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RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 23, 2013 at 12:38 am
(February 22, 2013 at 9:55 pm)Question Mark Wrote: I've asked for this as well, but you do seem curiously unwilling to give what your reasoning is.
Doesn't know how the universe started--->hates being ignorant, so arbitrarily declares that a god made it--->confronts complete lack of evidence for said god's existence by further claiming that such must be accepted on faith, and thus would evidence deny one of said faith--->????--->PROFIT!
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