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[Quranic Reflection]: Evolution
#41
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Evolution
(January 14, 2020 at 12:59 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: ---Or---
1) Humans wonder how speech came to be
2) Humans develop religions to explain unknowns
3) Humans posit that their god gave them speech
4) Humans write the Quran
QED Humans can be dumb sometimes.

I have a problem with the third premise. Speech is well known to the production of both the tongue and the mouth. Even ancients used to take away the ability to speak by simply cutting the tongue or even burn the mouth altogether.

Why would Mohammed -peace be upon him- attribute something like that to God -explicitly and directly-?
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#42
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Evolution
(January 17, 2020 at 5:34 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:
(January 14, 2020 at 12:59 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: ---Or---
1) Humans wonder how speech came to be
2) Humans develop religions to explain unknowns
3) Humans posit that their god gave them speech
4) Humans write the Quran
QED Humans can be dumb sometimes.

I have a problem with the third premise. Speech is well known to the production of both the tongue and the mouth. Even ancients used to take away the ability to speak by simply cutting the tongue or even burn the mouth altogether.

Why would Mohammed -peace be upon him- attribute something like that to God -explicitly and directly-?

I don't understand your objection. #3 is a fact, you've said so throughout this thread.  Many cultures do indeed attribute the ability to speak as a gift from the gods.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#43
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Evolution
(January 17, 2020 at 5:49 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(January 17, 2020 at 5:34 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: I have a problem with the third premise. Speech is well known to the production of both the tongue and the mouth. Even ancients used to take away the ability to speak by simply cutting the tongue or even burn the mouth altogether.

Why would Mohammed -peace be upon him- attribute something like that to God -explicitly and directly-?

I don't understand your objection. #3 is a fact, you've said so throughout this thread.  Many cultures do indeed attribute the ability to speak as a gift from the gods.

Boru

God "taught" people how to speak; parrots for example can mimic human voice, but I would never call them "taught" how to speak: rather "taught how to mimic".

The objection is why did Mohammed -peace be upon him- attribute such "simple human ability" to God? Obviously we weren't taught like parrots.
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#44
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Evolution
(January 17, 2020 at 5:06 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:
(January 17, 2020 at 5:49 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I don't understand your objection. #3 is a fact, you've said so throughout this thread.  Many cultures do indeed attribute the ability to speak as a gift from the gods.

Boru

God "taught" people how to speak; parrots for example can mimic human voice, but I would never call them "taught" how to speak: rather "taught how to mimic".

The objection is why did Mohammed -peace be upon him- attribute such "simple human ability" to God? Obviously we weren't taught like parrots.

I think I understand. When the Quran says that God taught humans to speak, it is a true and holy statement and supportive of biological evolution. When an atheist says precisely the same thing, it is wrong and problematic.  Thanks for clearing that up.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#45
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Evolution
We're taught to speak exactly like parrots are. Just a fun aside.
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#46
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Evolution
(January 17, 2020 at 5:34 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:
(January 14, 2020 at 12:59 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: ---Or---
1) Humans wonder how speech came to be
2) Humans develop religions to explain unknowns
3) Humans posit that their god gave them speech
4) Humans write the Quran
QED Humans can be dumb sometimes.

I have a problem with the third premise. Speech is well known to the production of both the tongue and the mouth. Even ancients used to take away the ability to speak by simply cutting the tongue or even burn the mouth altogether.

Why would Mohammed -peace be upon him- attribute something like that to God -explicitly and directly-?

Why wouldn't he? If you believe Allah is the creator of everything, surely it's not a stretch to think he gifted us language? Is there some difference between believing that speech evolved by Allah's hand and that he 'gave it' to us?

Speech is a production of the human brain, the mouth is merely the vehicle or tool by which the sounds are made. If you cut out my tongue, I wouldn't magically forget language. I'd still be able to write, I'd still be able to learn sign language and communicate.
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great

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#47
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Evolution
(January 17, 2020 at 7:59 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: We're taught to speak exactly like parrots are.  Just a fun aside.

IKR? I was doing some mosquito nets in frames to fit outside the windows and the hammer needed glasses, it hit a finger instead of the nail. The usual "fuck!" Came out. My 3 yo daughter was around and heard me. She started going around saying fuck left and right -.-;

The kindergarden professor told me when she asked my daughter to do a task she wasn't into, she said "faaaaaack". O.o;

I suppose that one is my fault.
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#48
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Evolution
Consider yourself lucky, my son has echolalia as the most prominent symptom of mild ASD.
We've had a whole range of 'interesting' words, accents and his current favourite; hand-dryers...
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
-Esquilax

Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
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#49
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Evolution
(January 17, 2020 at 9:04 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote:
(January 17, 2020 at 5:34 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: I have a problem with the third premise. Speech is well known to the production of both the tongue and the mouth. Even ancients used to take away the ability to speak by simply cutting the tongue or even burn the mouth altogether.

Why would Mohammed -peace be upon him- attribute something like that to God -explicitly and directly-?

Why wouldn't he? If you believe Allah is the creator of everything, surely it's not a stretch to think he gifted us language? Is there some difference between believing that speech evolved by Allah's hand and that he 'gave it' to us?

Speech is a production of the human brain, the mouth is merely the vehicle or tool by which the sounds are made. If you cut out my tongue, I wouldn't magically forget language. I'd still be able to write, I'd still be able to learn sign language and communicate.

"teaching" is different than "giving".
"Teaching" takes time and stages, fitting "evolution" very well with each step of evolving from primitive animals to "Homo erectus" then "Homo sapien"; teaching fits this path while "giving" fits the stories ancient shamans told.

Teaching fits evolution, giving fits shaman stories.
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#50
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Evolution
(January 18, 2020 at 8:05 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: "teaching" is different than "giving".
"Teaching" takes time and stages, fitting "evolution" very well with each step of evolving from primitive animals to "Homo erectus" then "Homo sapien"; teaching fits this path while "giving" fits the stories ancient shamans told.

Teaching fits evolution, giving fits shaman stories.
Nope

Because teaching is different from evolving. Facepalm
Cant believe that i have to tell this to a grown up human being. Facepalm
I hardly have seen a person trying so hard to shoehorn his magic book nonsense into what is true and real. Facepalm Facepalm
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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