RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
July 21, 2013 at 9:50 am
(This post was last modified: July 21, 2013 at 9:59 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(July 21, 2013 at 2:49 am)bennyboy Wrote: I see them as identical. "Pre" just means "before now." But with a 1:1 causal relationship for EVERY t and t+1, then all things are both determined and predetermined. Except maybe the Big Bang itself, for which it's very hard to argue determinism since it supposedly has no cause.Determinism is a position that states that for any event, there are certain conditions that will lead only to that event. That certain conditions have only one outcome.
The only actual difference I can see is that the word "predetermined" implies mind with foresight and intent (i.e. God), whereas "determined" does not.
Predetermination is a position that states that some event will happen.....conditions are irrelevant. A predetermined event x happens -even if- circumstances should yield event y. 1+1= (pre)8.
That makes the two positions mutually exclusive.
(the situation for fatalism is similar. choice or not, your actions can have no effect, you are removed from causality even if it holds as an overriding principle. You are insignificant and unable to affect change )
Quote:This is really an argument about whether future time is "real," i.e. whether it's an actual dimension along which events are arrayed. If you see time as a dimension, then inevitability = actuality (but just currently inaccesible to us).LOL, no...it's a friendly discussion about all of the ways in which these positions are not the same. I fear that the only reason you feel that they are "the same" ultimately boils down to their common threat to "free will" or "mind" or what-have-you. You've lumped them in as enemies to the cause. As I've stated, fatalism and predetermination -do- allow choices, they do allow non deterministic (or events based on probability, or even random) events.
If we're to the point now where discussing the subject at hand requires us to debate or redefine time...I don't think that I'll "have the time" for that one. Imma be off the interwebs in 6 days..lol.
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