Abortion is morally wrong

[The Grand Nudger]

Societies are subject to descent with modification in the same way that organisms we generally view as such do. Essentially, societies in which everyone goes around killing on a whim are not as likely to succeed as those which develop a taboo against the practice. They are replaced by the less violent ones. Those are the ones we observe.

If we have to add the qualifier "on a whim" we're probably already sounding the retreat from the claim. What we have is a justification for accepting that murder on a whim might best be considered "morally wrong" intra/society. We also have to turn the lamplight inward to make that one work at all, because societies that -did- go around killing -other societies- are precisely the ones that -did- succeed and that we -do- observe. To borrow your turn of phrase.

If we try to argue the utilitarian position (that it "works" the best for yidda yadda) for some overarching comment about murder we'll fall flat on our faces at worst, and at best end up with a situation in which it's sometimes okay, sometimes not - which is right where we are anyway (not that I wouldn;t argue a utilitarian position..but what "works best" may not be "right" - after all).

To put it more bluntly, if I roll with your claim about the morality of murder, and I roll with your justification for behavior based on societal success - and you are in my societies way...........

That's what I never understood about that "less violent/more likely to succeed" line. Slim chance that many on this board are from a society that doesn't have a history of violence that reads like a demons resume. We did succeed, that was how we succeeded. I think that people take it too far, not realizing that the possible advantage of being tranquil only extends within ones society - any benefit conferred via selective processes would exclude (and possibly be to the detriment of) those outside of the selective pool.