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On the lunacy of free will
#1
On the lunacy of free will
In the Christian view of the world, the concept of "free will" must create more pretzel logic than just about any other topic.

On one hand Christians believe that God is Omnipotent and not time-bound in scope, and supposedly controls everything from massively macro / global events down to how you feel when you wake up in the morning.

Things that happen are by "God's will". If a natural disaster happens, that's God's will. If there is a drought and all your crops die, it's God's will. If someone dies from disease, it's God's will. etc. In this simple, human-action disconnected level of thinking, the paradigm works well (and explains a bunch of otherwise unexplainable things, makes people feel better for there being some explanation other than just pure chance - ie. we must pray harder next year to save our crops - creates a sense of power where there is none, and power to the priests who seem to have the answers)

Christians also believe that individual people have free will. The will to choose whether to believe in God, for one (what fun would it be if your path to the afterlife was predetermined?) The extent to which you follow God's "laws". At a micro level again, at this human-action-centric level of thinking the "you actually are responsible for your own shit" paradigm works well. 

In today's society one person frequently has the ability to affect not just the lives of their immediate circle of relations, something that in the past would have been extremely rare, unless you were a king for example and interactions between the micro and macro views would have been quite rare also. 

Today, when you bring the two views together, the whole concept of free will fails miserably. 
  • If a pilot with a plane full of passengers decides to commit suicide using his free will, and kills everyone on board, doesn't that disrupt Gods "plan" for the entire set of passengers, their families and everyone related without giving them any free will? 
  • If a CEO of a pharmaceutical company decides to ignore laws concerning safety of operations and dumps chemicals into a local river this affects the health of thousands of people for generations.
In Christian ethos either God has a plan for us individually, or he does not. If he does, then clearly this plan can be completely disrupted by any one of the other billions of people on this planet. This makes the plan meaningless. None of this of course makes any sense at all.

On a sidenote, I had a frustrating conversation on another forum with a Christian in relation to a news story of a drug addict who later in life managed to get clean, go to university, graduate and become a successful person. There was no mention of God or religion anywhere in the story at all - just a good news story about a woman who managed to pull herself out of the quagmire of drugs by her own strength and fortitude (not many stories like that around these days). 
This Christian posted that this was proof that God was great and God pulled this woman from her life of sin and misery. There are so many contradictory things with this viewpoint that I don't even know where to start:
  • The woman was not a Christian, otherwise her thanks to God for her successes would have been plastered all over the story
  • The Christian poster ignored the obvious point that if it was God that pulled the woman out of drug dependency, then he must have also put her in it in the first place unless free will only works in one direction? 
  • So Christians believe that God only ever saves people, but people themselves get into trouble by giving in to Satan, but that is just a little too convenient - kind of like a terrible good cop, bad cop routine.
  • The woman in the story clearly was not born again or recently come to God, so how she managed to "extract herself from Satan" without coming to Jesus is anyone's guess, or why God would save her when she clearly does not give him any credit!
Thoughts?
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Messages In This Thread
On the lunacy of free will - by slartibartfast - October 11, 2021 at 3:01 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 11, 2021 at 3:03 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 11, 2021 at 4:05 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by slartibartfast - October 11, 2021 at 7:23 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Jehanne - October 11, 2021 at 7:34 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by brewer - October 11, 2021 at 6:44 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by HappySkeptic - October 11, 2021 at 6:53 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by slartibartfast - October 11, 2021 at 7:37 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ferrocyanide - October 11, 2021 at 7:57 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 11, 2021 at 9:58 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ferrocyanide - October 11, 2021 at 11:51 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 11, 2021 at 11:03 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 11, 2021 at 11:08 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by slartibartfast - October 12, 2021 at 12:31 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 12, 2021 at 8:39 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 12, 2021 at 9:27 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 12, 2021 at 9:29 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ferrocyanide - October 12, 2021 at 10:46 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 11, 2021 at 11:18 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 11, 2021 at 11:21 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 11, 2021 at 11:22 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 11, 2021 at 11:25 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 11, 2021 at 11:25 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 12:06 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Nay_Sayer - October 12, 2021 at 12:56 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Neo-Scholastic - October 12, 2021 at 8:00 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by slartibartfast - October 13, 2021 at 8:30 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ferrocyanide - October 14, 2021 at 12:20 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by HappySkeptic - October 14, 2021 at 1:51 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by slartibartfast - October 14, 2021 at 4:11 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 14, 2021 at 4:22 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 9:30 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 12, 2021 at 9:32 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 12, 2021 at 10:00 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 12, 2021 at 10:03 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 12, 2021 at 10:23 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 12, 2021 at 10:37 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 12, 2021 at 10:54 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 9:34 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 12, 2021 at 9:39 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 12, 2021 at 11:57 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ferrocyanide - October 12, 2021 at 12:57 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Angrboda - October 12, 2021 at 1:05 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ferrocyanide - October 13, 2021 at 8:28 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 9:43 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 12, 2021 at 9:56 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 10:00 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 10:07 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 10:46 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 12, 2021 at 10:58 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by arewethereyet - October 12, 2021 at 10:59 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 12, 2021 at 11:04 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ferrocyanide - October 12, 2021 at 11:44 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Jehanne - October 12, 2021 at 1:23 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 12, 2021 at 1:50 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 12, 2021 at 2:05 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 10:59 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by arewethereyet - October 12, 2021 at 11:02 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 1:08 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Brian37 - October 12, 2021 at 1:08 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by arewethereyet - October 12, 2021 at 1:10 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Angrboda - October 12, 2021 at 1:21 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 1:52 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 12, 2021 at 2:05 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 12, 2021 at 2:07 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 13, 2021 at 9:38 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 14, 2021 at 12:22 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by slartibartfast - October 14, 2021 at 1:36 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 14, 2021 at 1:39 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by slartibartfast - October 14, 2021 at 2:44 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 14, 2021 at 7:02 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by slartibartfast - October 14, 2021 at 4:09 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 14, 2021 at 4:10 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 14, 2021 at 7:02 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 14, 2021 at 1:49 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 14, 2021 at 4:54 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 14, 2021 at 5:00 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 14, 2021 at 5:06 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 14, 2021 at 5:47 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by slartibartfast - October 14, 2021 at 10:29 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 15, 2021 at 1:42 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by slartibartfast - October 15, 2021 at 5:27 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 14, 2021 at 5:57 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 14, 2021 at 6:04 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 14, 2021 at 6:25 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 15, 2021 at 8:57 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 15, 2021 at 11:00 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 9:09 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by HappySkeptic - October 15, 2021 at 10:11 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 15, 2021 at 10:37 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by HappySkeptic - October 15, 2021 at 10:45 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by vulcanlogician - October 15, 2021 at 10:48 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by slartibartfast - October 15, 2021 at 10:48 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Astreja - October 19, 2021 at 11:23 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 15, 2021 at 11:08 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 15, 2021 at 11:42 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 15, 2021 at 12:16 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 15, 2021 at 12:35 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 12:41 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 15, 2021 at 12:52 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 15, 2021 at 12:57 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 15, 2021 at 1:09 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by arewethereyet - October 15, 2021 at 1:00 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 1:03 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 15, 2021 at 1:18 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 15, 2021 at 1:29 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 15, 2021 at 1:45 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 15, 2021 at 1:58 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 15, 2021 at 2:17 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 15, 2021 at 2:32 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 15, 2021 at 2:35 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 15, 2021 at 2:38 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 15, 2021 at 2:41 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 15, 2021 at 2:44 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 15, 2021 at 2:48 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 15, 2021 at 2:57 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by slartibartfast - October 15, 2021 at 6:56 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 15, 2021 at 3:07 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 15, 2021 at 3:09 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 15, 2021 at 3:15 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 3:17 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 15, 2021 at 3:58 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 15, 2021 at 3:24 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 4:03 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 15, 2021 at 6:37 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 17, 2021 at 8:18 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by arewethereyet - October 17, 2021 at 11:04 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 17, 2021 at 10:50 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 17, 2021 at 11:32 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Peebo-Thuhlu - October 17, 2021 at 4:08 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by arewethereyet - October 17, 2021 at 5:46 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 19, 2021 at 9:01 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 19, 2021 at 10:22 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 19, 2021 at 11:44 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by arewethereyet - October 19, 2021 at 11:49 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 19, 2021 at 12:19 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by arewethereyet - October 19, 2021 at 12:22 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 19, 2021 at 1:37 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Astreja - October 19, 2021 at 1:46 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 19, 2021 at 1:50 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Soberman921 - October 19, 2021 at 2:55 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Fake Messiah - October 19, 2021 at 5:19 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 19, 2021 at 3:05 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 19, 2021 at 3:22 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Ahriman - October 19, 2021 at 3:39 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 19, 2021 at 3:57 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 19, 2021 at 5:15 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 19, 2021 at 6:44 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 19, 2021 at 8:27 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Spongebob - October 19, 2021 at 8:47 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 20, 2021 at 12:50 am
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by arewethereyet - October 19, 2021 at 5:23 pm
RE: On the lunacy of free will - by Astreja - October 19, 2021 at 9:15 pm

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