For football/soccer fans, predictions for the World Cup

[Napoléon]

When weilding an axe an untrained wood cutter goes for power. A skilled cutter can achieve more with less. For me I'd prefer a curved trajectory because it is more deceiving. Think of the greats... Roberto Carlos, David Beckham.

Roberto Carlos? ROBERTO CARLOS? The guy who used to have the longest run up in free kicking history? Who was known for simply smacking the ball as hard as he could? The man who they nicknamed "The Rocket"? You use him to justify less powerful and more skillful free kicks? More with less? Really?

You can be skillful and have power. Roberto Carlos was one of those guys, but you using him as an example of someone like you suggest in your analogy? Did you ever watch him take a free kick?

Again, when was the last time Messi scored from 40 yards out? Never. At least Beckham, Ronaldo and Carlos could. You say you prefer a curved trajectory because it's more deceiving? How on Earth do you ever work out Messi's free kicks as being more deceiving than Ronaldo's? Ronaldo's are the ultimate deceiving free kick. He hits it in such a way that the flight of the ball can change drastically. Many goalkeepers would attest to that fact. Anyone who has ever played with today's balls knows that smashing a ball in a certain way can have pretty hilarious variances in the ball flight.

Being famed for something doesn't mean you are particularly skilled at it. Could it be that Messi's set pieces are conventional and Ronaldo's being unorthodox attract more attention? He is very dramatic with his stance and measuring.

I didn't say that, but it's certainly an indicator of what your free kicks are all about.

Ronaldo does not run 100 meters in a match flat out. This point is irrelevant. In soccer the players run in short bursts rarely reaching full speed. Acceleration on the other hand is a frequently used attribute.

The 100 meters is the ultimate test of short distance running no? I'd say it's relevant. The way Real Madrid play is with fast counter-attacking football. If Ronaldo is on the edge of his own box it's more beneficial for him to run the distance of the pitch to keep up with play with his speed than with Messi's. Especially if he has to keep up with Bale.

I do agree with your earlier statement though, Messi ain't a slow coach either. But Ronaldo is faster IMHO.

Yes, I concede this point. I disagree with the Messi diving though. Messi has demonstrated throughout his career that he is a player that prefers to be on his feet. Fetching a video with Messi diving is inadmissible as evidence. Those dives are taken completely out of context. For example there is no indication of time in the video. The occurances of the dives could be few and far between, but this is a sample taken over a long period of time. This creates the illusion of Messi being a frequent offender. This is simply not true. I'd go as far as saying that Messi almost goes down as a last resort. Ronaldo goes down intentionally

I guess we can come to a compromise, I know Ronaldo 'dives' more than Messi. I was just pointing out that when people say Messi never dives, they are completely wrong. He does dive, he does it more than many people think. Also, diving, depending on how you want to look at it, can be a positive thing. Nobody likes to see it in the game, but if you have a player on your team that's particularly good at deceiving refs (Arjen Robben and Ashley Young spring to mind), they could win a game on that alone.

There's a reason I didn't challenge you on heading and long range shots. Ronaldo is by far the better man here. Since you've found the need to bring this up again, I'll say a few words on it. Let's not make the mistake of thinking something is likely simply because it is possible. When was the last time Ronaldo scored a goal like he did against Porto in the champions league campaign of 2009?

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editori...rmation-of

The scale of his improvement against Barcelona in particular has been impressive. Fixtures against them were initially dreadful. That 5-0 in Camp Nou was the nadir. Redemption came with a superhuman header in the Copa del Rey final of 2011 to win the trophy. He's taken to scoring against Barca with considerable ease since. He's netted 13 times in 21 games against them in the white of Real Madrid.

...

Atletico may have risen in prominence under Diego Simeone but Ronaldo has routinely found the net against them too. His total is 12 in 13 games against the other side in Madrid. When Ronaldo started out at the Bernabeu, the games against Atletico were big only in the sense that they were derby encounters. Simeone, however, has earned the right to put his side into decisive matches against Real - both in La Liga and in Europe.

Do you think Real Madrid would have won the champions league this year without his record 16 goals?

What about when he scored a hat trick against Sweden to secure his team were in the world cup? Surely no match is bigger than that?

I'm sure in all of these big goals there's some headers and long shots in there.

I don't want to be pedantic but it is an argument from ignorance. You are not relying on actual information but assumed. Instead you are leaning on inductive reasoning. I call even on your point of Messi relying on his team mates more. Messi has scored countless individual, sensational goals. At the peak of his powers he can take on 5 men and will a goal out of thin air. He even did this in a classico WITH Ronaldo on the same field. Messi also destroyed a whole team in Maradona fashion further fuelling comparisons with the Argentina legend.

I never disputed that Messi scored some great individual goals, but who do you honestly think gets better service?

I'm not saying for a fact that Messi wouldn't score as many goals as he does for Barca in another league. But it's surely not an argument from ignorance to suggest that this would be highly unlikely given what we already know.

Ronaldo certainly is the more complete player. He comes fully loaded with all sorts of skills for the game. But I define best as who can get you the win, who can show up in the big matches and who is more reliable. While valid, I criticise your definition simply because it is primarily theoretical. Messi is the best.

I'll redirect you to that article I quoted earlier. Ronaldo is just as likely as Messi to get you a win in big games.

I look at it like this. Why do people say Muhammad Ali was the best/greatest of all time?
1: Because he told everyone so
2: He was one of the most well rounded boxers ever to live. He could do everything. Everything.

Now, for me, Messi is kinda like Mike Tyson (stay with me here). He's incredibly efficient at what he does. If not the best in that particular aspect. Mike Tyson in that he gets KO's. Messi in that he's the best dribbler and finisher out there. However, Mike Tyson (unless you listen to imbeciles) doesn't go down as 'the best'. He goes down as one of the best maybe, but when people talk about who is the best? It's the guy who can do it all. Ali with great chin, stamina, skill, power, speed, intelligence. Ronaldo with his skill, long shots, heading, finishing, passing. Both of these guys are more well rounded, more complete in what they do.

For this reason, theoretical or whatever it may be (I think when you're talking about who is 'the best' it can only ever be theoretical), I'd say Ronaldo is the better player. The thing is, you try and look at it in terms of something else, like say, record. Then Muhammad Ali would never have gone down as the greatest. Does he have the best boxing record ever? No. Does Ronaldo have the best record in terms of titles, and scoring? Ofcourse not. My point is, I'd rather judge it on the aspects I'm describing, than the aspects you're describing.



Yeah... long post... I know.