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The First Century Void
RE: The First Century Void
No problem... anything about me whether true or false, is really unimportant anyway. Perhaps you would prefer to continue the discussion where the other left off.

Some of the things mentioned in the quote of Carrier really have nothing to do with the mythicist's position. The darkeness that covered the land is found in the threee synoptic Gospels. So it has multiple witnesses attesting to it. There are somethings that are only recorded by Matthew however, that from a historical standpoint, I think would think the lack of corroboration would justly deserve a question mark next to it.... although I don't think that the certainty asserted by Carrier in saying "we can be sure that never happened" is justified from the relatively weak Argument from Silence. And yet again, this is an easily falsifiable claim and the argument from silence can work the other way as well. What about the silence from those who stood agaisnt the Christian movement; why don't we hear from them? Especially for the church in Jerusalem, this would have been the first thing I would bring up.

But on to the more pertinent claim about the fame of Jesus. The Gospels do say that Jesus gained a number of followers in His short 3 year ministry. And I think that this is evidenced by the quick growth of the Church; especially in the local area, such as Jerusalem. However, it doesn't have to be all or nothing as some critics like to make out. It certainly seems reasonable that in one sense, He was famous and had a following. But on the other hand, in the short time he was public didn't gather the attention of those who didn't believe. I think there is a certain presentism error that is being introduced here. Where we think that the coverage of news, blogs, and annoying people on youtube, speaking about everything and everyone should translate into this earlier time. This is why when presented with this argument from silence, I ask who specifically and which work you think that Jesus should have been mentioned in. As I mentioned before Pliny the Elder is often mentioned, but I find it laughable, that anyone who has actually looked at his work, thinks that Jesus should be covered there. As impressive and exhaustive as his early encyclopedia is; mentioning of Jesus just doesn't fit. Philo wrote mostly about ideas and philosophy. Josephus is probably the closest as a History of the Jews (and does briefly mention Jesus, which we won't get into again). But even if it doesn't; where in that work, do you think that Jesus should without question fit?

The other night, I watched the debate between Bart Ehrman and Robert Price. It was quite interesting. In it Dr. Ehrman pointed out, that we have better historical evidence for Jesus, than any other Palestinian Jew at that time. Really better than any other person in that area at the time. We know more about Jesus, then we do Caiaphas a predominant Jewish high priest at the time. More than Pilate (who until recent evidence was uncovered some scholars had doubted". The next closest to whom we have better evidence for, is Josephus... and that is only because he wrote a lot himself (which we likely wouldn't have had, if Christians hadn't preserved his work). Ehrman is an excellent speaker; and although I have some disagreements with some of his conclusions, he presented the case agaisnt mythicism fairly well. By the end, you could see that Price was loosing patience. And essentially appeared to say that his position was possible, and he liked his story better. The problem is the evidence they don't have or at minimum only weak evidence, and then they try to make up a story from there. At one point, Robert said something was an interpolation and Bart called him on it, and said, that you can't just call evidence which disagrees with your position an interpolation, that is not how history is done.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
Reply



Messages In This Thread
The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 10, 2017 at 6:22 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Fake Messiah - June 11, 2017 at 5:36 am
RE: The First Century Void - by vorlon13 - June 11, 2017 at 10:39 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Gawdzilla Sama - June 11, 2017 at 6:19 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 11, 2017 at 1:04 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Fake Messiah - June 11, 2017 at 4:45 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 11, 2017 at 11:40 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Gawdzilla Sama - June 11, 2017 at 7:04 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 13, 2017 at 7:32 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by vorlon13 - June 13, 2017 at 7:35 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by ignoramus - June 14, 2017 at 4:38 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 13, 2017 at 7:41 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by vorlon13 - June 14, 2017 at 10:22 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Succubus - June 16, 2017 at 5:09 am
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 16, 2017 at 9:41 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 17, 2017 at 12:24 am
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 17, 2017 at 3:08 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 17, 2017 at 10:51 am
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 17, 2017 at 1:21 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by vorlon13 - June 17, 2017 at 11:24 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 18, 2017 at 2:44 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Secular Elf - June 17, 2017 at 12:09 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Fake Messiah - June 20, 2017 at 6:04 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Secular Elf - June 20, 2017 at 4:11 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 20, 2017 at 10:32 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Fake Messiah - June 22, 2017 at 6:24 am
RE: The First Century Void - by vorlon13 - June 22, 2017 at 11:19 am
RE: The First Century Void - by vorlon13 - June 17, 2017 at 1:33 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 17, 2017 at 1:56 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by vorlon13 - June 17, 2017 at 2:04 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 17, 2017 at 2:12 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by vorlon13 - June 17, 2017 at 2:05 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Fake Messiah - June 20, 2017 at 11:04 am
RE: The First Century Void - by vorlon13 - June 17, 2017 at 2:39 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by vorlon13 - June 20, 2017 at 11:12 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 20, 2017 at 5:11 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 20, 2017 at 10:34 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 22, 2017 at 3:23 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by vorlon13 - June 20, 2017 at 10:36 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 20, 2017 at 10:41 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 22, 2017 at 12:21 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Secular Elf - June 27, 2017 at 3:54 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 27, 2017 at 11:28 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Fake Messiah - June 28, 2017 at 3:42 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Succubus - June 28, 2017 at 8:18 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Fake Messiah - June 28, 2017 at 11:28 am
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 22, 2017 at 9:03 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 22, 2017 at 9:32 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 22, 2017 at 11:07 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 22, 2017 at 11:45 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 23, 2017 at 8:15 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - June 24, 2017 at 6:00 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 24, 2017 at 6:50 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 24, 2017 at 7:17 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - June 24, 2017 at 7:53 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 24, 2017 at 9:52 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 23, 2017 at 12:53 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 24, 2017 at 3:48 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 24, 2017 at 5:53 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 24, 2017 at 6:04 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by GUBU - June 24, 2017 at 7:12 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - June 24, 2017 at 6:09 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - June 24, 2017 at 7:09 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - June 24, 2017 at 10:08 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 24, 2017 at 10:10 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - June 24, 2017 at 10:11 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - June 24, 2017 at 10:12 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 26, 2017 at 6:57 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 26, 2017 at 12:58 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Fake Messiah - June 26, 2017 at 3:32 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Succubus - June 26, 2017 at 7:19 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - June 26, 2017 at 10:18 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 26, 2017 at 10:47 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Fake Messiah - June 26, 2017 at 11:52 am
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 27, 2017 at 8:31 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Fake Messiah - June 27, 2017 at 10:02 am
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 27, 2017 at 11:18 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Wyrd of Gawd - July 3, 2017 at 4:16 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - July 3, 2017 at 11:51 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Fake Messiah - July 3, 2017 at 5:55 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Wyrd of Gawd - July 3, 2017 at 10:18 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - June 26, 2017 at 1:13 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 26, 2017 at 3:30 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - June 27, 2017 at 12:34 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 27, 2017 at 1:05 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - June 27, 2017 at 2:10 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 27, 2017 at 3:12 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Secular Elf - June 27, 2017 at 4:24 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 27, 2017 at 4:03 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 27, 2017 at 5:36 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - June 27, 2017 at 11:28 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by The Grand Nudger - June 27, 2017 at 11:44 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - June 27, 2017 at 11:50 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by The Grand Nudger - June 27, 2017 at 11:59 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - June 28, 2017 at 9:52 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - June 28, 2017 at 2:26 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by The Grand Nudger - June 28, 2017 at 2:34 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - June 28, 2017 at 3:07 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by The Grand Nudger - June 28, 2017 at 3:22 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by vorlon13 - June 28, 2017 at 3:42 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - July 2, 2017 at 12:27 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 3, 2017 at 11:17 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 2, 2017 at 6:06 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 3, 2017 at 2:14 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 3, 2017 at 3:38 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 3, 2017 at 5:45 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 3, 2017 at 6:16 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - July 3, 2017 at 6:54 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 3, 2017 at 7:06 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 3, 2017 at 10:09 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - July 3, 2017 at 7:57 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 3, 2017 at 10:47 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - July 3, 2017 at 11:13 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 3, 2017 at 11:34 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - July 3, 2017 at 11:43 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 3, 2017 at 11:50 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - July 3, 2017 at 11:52 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 4, 2017 at 12:07 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Wyrd of Gawd - July 4, 2017 at 2:12 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Fake Messiah - July 4, 2017 at 4:35 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 4, 2017 at 7:37 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - July 4, 2017 at 6:13 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 4, 2017 at 6:52 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 4, 2017 at 1:31 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - July 4, 2017 at 4:22 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 4, 2017 at 4:54 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 4, 2017 at 7:09 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Succubus - July 4, 2017 at 7:11 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 4, 2017 at 1:53 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 4, 2017 at 3:39 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by JackRussell - July 4, 2017 at 4:12 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 4, 2017 at 4:37 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - July 6, 2017 at 8:15 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 6, 2017 at 8:32 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 6, 2017 at 10:00 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 6, 2017 at 10:11 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 6, 2017 at 11:21 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 7, 2017 at 7:09 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Succubus - July 7, 2017 at 9:32 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 7, 2017 at 7:59 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - July 7, 2017 at 8:56 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 7, 2017 at 10:09 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 7, 2017 at 11:12 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - July 7, 2017 at 10:13 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 7, 2017 at 11:19 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 8, 2017 at 1:48 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 8, 2017 at 12:48 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 8, 2017 at 2:08 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Dropship - July 8, 2017 at 4:10 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Succubus - July 8, 2017 at 9:24 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Dropship - July 9, 2017 at 4:56 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Succubus - July 9, 2017 at 6:41 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - July 9, 2017 at 9:39 am
RE: The First Century Void - by GUBU - July 9, 2017 at 1:09 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Dropship - July 10, 2017 at 11:03 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Succubus - July 10, 2017 at 12:25 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by GUBU - July 10, 2017 at 3:08 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - July 10, 2017 at 11:16 am
RE: The First Century Void - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2017 at 9:07 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - July 10, 2017 at 11:15 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Dropship - July 10, 2017 at 11:50 am
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 10, 2017 at 12:15 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Succubus - July 10, 2017 at 12:57 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by vorlon13 - July 10, 2017 at 12:00 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - July 10, 2017 at 11:53 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - July 10, 2017 at 12:04 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - July 10, 2017 at 12:16 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 10, 2017 at 12:55 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by The Grand Nudger - July 10, 2017 at 6:04 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 10, 2017 at 7:42 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 12, 2017 at 8:03 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Succubus - July 13, 2017 at 9:36 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - July 13, 2017 at 9:40 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - July 20, 2017 at 1:20 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 25, 2017 at 12:30 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - July 25, 2017 at 1:45 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 25, 2017 at 5:49 am
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 25, 2017 at 7:43 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Succubus - July 25, 2017 at 11:14 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 25, 2017 at 3:33 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 25, 2017 at 4:16 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - July 25, 2017 at 4:21 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by GUBU - July 25, 2017 at 4:32 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 25, 2017 at 4:39 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 25, 2017 at 4:56 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 25, 2017 at 5:07 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 25, 2017 at 5:35 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - July 25, 2017 at 6:30 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 25, 2017 at 6:54 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - July 25, 2017 at 7:18 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - July 25, 2017 at 7:49 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - July 26, 2017 at 11:08 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - July 26, 2017 at 11:17 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - July 26, 2017 at 11:14 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - August 3, 2017 at 9:53 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - August 7, 2017 at 8:32 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Fake Messiah - August 7, 2017 at 11:01 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Dropship - August 8, 2017 at 8:32 am
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - August 8, 2017 at 9:26 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Dropship - August 8, 2017 at 11:19 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - August 8, 2017 at 11:16 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - August 8, 2017 at 12:04 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - August 8, 2017 at 12:20 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - August 9, 2017 at 7:22 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Fake Messiah - August 10, 2017 at 3:06 am
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - August 10, 2017 at 9:49 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - August 9, 2017 at 1:57 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - August 9, 2017 at 3:25 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by The Grand Nudger - August 12, 2017 at 11:06 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Fake Messiah - August 12, 2017 at 1:48 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - August 12, 2017 at 2:46 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - August 12, 2017 at 3:16 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - August 12, 2017 at 4:23 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - August 12, 2017 at 5:04 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - September 6, 2017 at 2:19 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by RoadRunner79 - September 6, 2017 at 9:09 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - September 6, 2017 at 10:11 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - September 7, 2017 at 4:53 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - September 6, 2017 at 10:22 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - September 6, 2017 at 10:33 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - September 7, 2017 at 1:45 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - September 7, 2017 at 2:12 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - September 7, 2017 at 2:28 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by vorlon13 - September 7, 2017 at 2:30 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - September 7, 2017 at 2:51 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Amarok - September 7, 2017 at 7:11 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Minimalist - September 7, 2017 at 8:37 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by vorlon13 - September 7, 2017 at 9:15 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - September 8, 2017 at 4:14 am
RE: The First Century Void - by The Grand Nudger - September 8, 2017 at 9:08 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - September 8, 2017 at 9:51 am
RE: The First Century Void - by Crossless2.0 - September 8, 2017 at 2:06 pm
RE: The First Century Void - by Cyberman - September 9, 2017 at 5:59 am

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