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Our role(s) as Christians on Atheist Forums
#26
RE: Our role(s) as Christians on Atheist Forums
(May 8, 2018 at 12:06 pm)A Theist Wrote: Can Christians be perfect? After all, Jesus said, Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. In Revelations the church of Sardis was warned, Be watchful and strengthen the things which remain and are ready to die, for I have not found your works to be perfect before God. Is it really possible for Christians to attain that perfection which Jesus expects from everyone who follows Him? If not, then why would Jesus lay such a heavy demand on Christians that's impossible to attain?

Thoughts? Ideas?

Look at how the word "perfect" (in the greek also means complete) is used: Yes Jesus said we are to be perfect like God is perfect, but how specifically? are we to assume in all aspects of law and life? or was their an example given? one verse before was how Jesus suggest we be perfect as God is perfect.

how to love your enemies.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[k] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies. Pray for those who treat you badly. 45 If you do this, you will be children who are truly like your Father in heaven. He lets the sun rise for all people, whether they are good or bad. He sends rain to those who do right and to those who do wrong. 46 If you love only those who love you, why should you get a reward for that? Even the tax collectors do that. 47 And if you are nice only to your friends, you are no better than anyone else. Even the people who don’t know God are nice to their friends. 48 What I am saying is that you must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

None of This has nothing to do with keeping the moral law. So then why assume we must keep the whole of the moral law as God keeps it when 7/8 of the passage highlighted speaks on forgiving your enemy? Why assume anything other than we must be perfect in forgiving those who sin against us, as God is perfect in forgiving those who sin against him??? Just that alone makes more sense as Jesus was simply summing up what he had said in the first 7/8 of that paragraph.. But even so the absolute proof of this is found in the revelation passage:

He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, [a]but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds [u]completed in the sight of My God. [/u]
Your translation says perfect rather than complete but the idea is the same. in that Jesus is judging the church not perfect/have not completed the things God requires.

Which is what again? it ties to the mat 5 passage that we must love our enemy as God loves us we must forgive them as we ourselves will not be forgiven. I know you subscribe to a different kind of understanding to salvation but according to our lord's very own prayer, we all have been taught to pray. that God tie our forgiveness on our ability to forgive others. meaning if we can't forgive our enemy then we ask god not for forgive us.

"Forgive our sins AS WE Forgive Those who sin against us." So then why is Jesus calling us to be "complete perfect" as God is Complete/perfect when it comes to forgiving our enemy? because in truth we are at war/enemy of God in our sins. And like the parable of the servant who was given much we can not look to collect a smaller debt against someone else when we have been forgiven such a large debt.

This was the sin at the church of sardis. they seemed alive meaning they were active but the could not forgive as they had been forgiven.

How do I know this is the only answer, because of what Paul has to say about sin in the book of Romans. Romans explains our whole sin nature in great detail. in short we will always be slaves to sin. Now if you believe the bble is the inspired word of God these two passages can not conflict with one another. he boils all of this down in romans 7:
14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good. 17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

It sounds like a cop out but Paul is saying we are of two natures. the soul who hates sin and the body who is a slave to sin. He points out here that so long as we hate the sin we do, then it is not us who sin but the spirit/the governing animalistic controller of the body who sins. While we are together in this life we/our souls will be made to sin.

Remember this is a saint/apostle speak who pretty much established the church as we know it. and if he could not abstain from sinning what chance do you have?

Again not a free passage too sin, but the explanation of our dual nature.. which means if our soul and spirit agree on sin then it is something God will not forgive.

If you take away the idea that Jesus in Mat 5:48 is speaking about the moral perfection of God and we must emulate that. (despite what he teaches about his reason for being here qnd what paul has to say) and put the idea of perfection/complete forgiveness back on to loving your enemy as the passage indicates then there is no conflict between what Jesus taught and what Paul teaches.

In short Jesus is teaching we must forgive how God forgives other wise we are endanger of not being forgiven ourselves. which is very consistant with the teaching of the rest of the chapter.


my favorite hymn accepella as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nScaAluVbXM

This is the greatest commands put to song.
Alto:
Love one another, for love is of God.
He who loves is born of God;
And knows God.
He who does not love, does not know God,
For God is love, God is love, God is love.

Bass:
Love bears all things,
Believes all things,
Love hopes all things,
Endures all things.

Tenor:
God is love, God is love, God is love.
God is love, God is love, God is love.
God is love, God is love, God is love,
God is love, God is love, God is love.

Soprano:
Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
With all thy soul, all thy strength,
All thy mind.
Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
For God is love, God is love, God is love.

Why do i love this so much? each group expresses their understanding of God love to the absolute best of their ability. each set of words are different, yet they all have the common theme of a group of people loving God to the end of their ability. Now if this were compared to a structured denomination all would have to sing the same way in the same cords. This is a shinning example of how biblical Christianity differs from all other forms. it allows each of us with like ablities people to express our understanding of the love of God (the words) to our fullest physical ability (vocal range) be different, rather be obtrusively different almost to the point of distraction to anyone outside looking in.. yet be in perfect harmony with each other and God.

20+ years singing this song and I still can't make it through it with out blubbering 1/2 way through
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RE: Our role(s) as Christians on Atheist Forums - by Drich - May 8, 2018 at 2:10 pm



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