The dawn of civilization

[The Grand Nudger]

Thanks Bolga I appreciate ur input. U know more than me about about agriculture which is good.

It is widely thought to be the end of an ice age. The civilizations just popped up one after the other didn’t they. Especially when u look at the middle east

I don't think we could really call it popping up.  The oldest sites have a longer history of habitation.  We'd pretty much have to go site by site though, because the organization and industry differs.  

How certain are we on the dates? Ive read that Mesopotamia was from 8,000BC and others say 5,500BC. Our written history begins here followed by the Indus valley and Egypt, then Babylon and the rest.

We can't be certain, we can only make progressively more narrow estimates.  The fertile crescent is difficult, we can't say for sure but there's every reason to assume that precursor sites have long since been swallowed up by alluvial deposits.  The dates for that lie somewhere between the ubaid and uruk periods, 6500-3000bc.  5500 is right in the middle, so that's probably where that number comes from.  Late Nl egyptian and post pottery babylonian are all examples in the fertile crescent set, not separate from them.   

Early Harrapan in the indo gangetic follows a similar pattern, as does the north china plain, andes, and mesoamerican sets.  To make a conservative statement...globally, civilization began to coalesce between 8000bc and 3000bc, a long pattern of development in each case, and all five sites being within a thousand or so years from the others, give or take.  

And is it fair to say we don’t really know if religion or agriculture came first? Because I have heard arguments for both. Megaliths, u said we really have no idea if they were buildings, religious monuments or what. We don’t really even know how they were built either. Im interested in acient megaliths but thas a topic for another day

It is fair, yeah.   We'd have to have a seriously expansive definition for religion to contend otherwise, and whatever pre agricutlural whatsists we included in that expansive definition would be unrecognizable in comparison to religion as we know or see it now.  Essentially, it's the difference between personal superstitions, lucky sticks, and token idols..and temples or gatherings with a common and organized belief set.  

There's alot of sensationalism when it comes to megalithic sites.  It's not actually true that we don't know how they were built...more that it's difficult to understand why the people who built them would go through so much trouble to stand up some rocks, and how they found themselves with the time and manpower.  Particularly in the case of pre agricultural megaliths.    

That’s not nice. Note that u are the only one to give a theory on this thread. I might think someones theory is stupid but I never think someone is stupid for postulating a theory on such things that no one knows about. That’s not fair.

I haven’t been ridiculous. I was given countless definitions by this forum on belief. Am I ridiculous to try understand the definition or  not to pick one? I accepted it in my 3rd post but people are still on there now, who is ridiculous? And then I post a thread asking why that guy and many atheists are angry. Whats ridiculous about that, seriously? Its been 30 vs 1. I havent used foul language nor have i attacked anyone, iv remained calm in a room full of hostile atheists. Am I ridiculous? 20 atheists all getting their knickers in a knot over 1 person. Am I ridiculous?

Everyone is just scared and paranoid that im a theist and don't like being questioned. Even in this thread someone was like "I'm not sure what needs to be explained" as if he knows all wen he explained nothing. Like I said im not trying to win an argument. Just rather bounce thoughts off people and understand this community

Bolga ur the only one with the balls to offer a theory here. The only one who has actually given this topic a thought. Im only communicating with u, one on one. Not 30 on 1. So I ask u to rid all your emotions and preconceived notions. Its a long post but don’t respond instantly from the heart. Take time to think first so u can respond from the mind. If u still claim that Im ridiculous then I'll walk away knowing at east i tried.



My theory is on pre agriculture and is based on human nature and the observation of mammal societies, especially primates. Watched heaps of docos.

Humans have the biological drive to procreate, all animals do. Its our most primeval instinct after survival. The males instinct is to screw as many women as he can. What do young men even today try to do? It’s in our subconscious to pass our seed far and wide. He will choose the most attractive one if he has to but otherwise will screw whoever.

Women are much more choosy. Their search for a mate is driven by hybristophilia and hypergamy. The need for a strong male who can protect and provide for her. She also wants to take the seed of the fittest men. Hypergamy is easily seen today and has even been given a mainstream term, gold digger. Female hypergamy is a constant theme in mammals.

So 200.000 years ago there is a chance that we lived in a society like the silverback gorillas. A new species humans would have been driven by the most primeval instincts to survive and procreate. The females don’t screw around with the average males. They only go to the alpha males which makes up for about 20% of the male population. Males would have had harems of 6-10 females and controlled a territory for its resources. Other alpha males challenge for control of the females and resources.

I often hear people blame religion for wars which is totally false. Resources and land are always the reason for war. Religion will get used as a motivator to rally the troops just like patriotism in USA, USSR, Nazi Germany, Napoleon. Religion gets used as a propaganda tool just like uncle Sam. Even the crusade wars was primarily about land, the defence of Europe from Islam.

So there are 80% of males (beta males) who life tough lives, died early from malnutrition and often never fulfill their biological drive to mate. These are the people who will get used and abused throughout history. They will over the years be used as slaves/servants/employees and soldiers. Slavery is another thing often attributed to religion when again there is no evidence of this. Slavery seems to be just as old as written history so we really don’t know how it came about.

Alpha males start bringing betas into his “kingdom” He allows them to procreate with some of his females on the condition of service. Confrontations over rescores drives the need to build bigger societies with bigger armies to defend and attack when required. And so evolved into societies similar to Chimpanzees. Evidence of war is all over the animal kingdom and its interesting to see the chimps, thought to be mans closest relative, wage wars that hand to hand are more brutal than human wars.

Ul read things here that u might think is appalling and immoral but what are morals at this point in history? Survival is the only thing that matters. Nature isn’t about morals. Life and death is all around.

So societies were limited by the ice age. There would have been limited areas suitable enough to maintain survival. Areas with water, wild game, and edible plants.
Climate started changing and man starts experimenting with agriculture. There are constant wars. The beta males are slaves/employees. There isn’t a translation for employee in the ancient western texts. Only slave and servant. So for their services they were granted citizenship, a place to live and resources like food to survive.

After war there would be a shortage of men so polygamy was accepted as long as the man was able to provide for all his wives. The women are willing parties to polygamy and in fact are the driving force as they become desperate to find a man to impregnate her she has no problem being in a polyamy relationship.


Wait thers more

The Chad Theory, lol. It's ridiculous. There's alot of grunting and groaning about alpha and beta males up there, but no explanation for ag, civ, or religion. Where did Chad get his bricks, how did he know how to make them? Who did Chad learn that from and how long did it take to go from lithic to ceramic culture? How many Chads are required to cultivate an appreciable piece of cropland and with what? Whats the defining feature or moment of Chad-based religious emergence? What was Stacy up to, with her hyper vagina, while Chad was doing what he does? Cucking betas, I presume?

etc, etc, etc