The hijab (etc) is immodest

[EgoDeath]

@Belacqua

Okay... wow. First and foremost man, let's step back a bit and just relax with the insults. So far you've called me a fool, simple-minded and a bigot.

Call me a fool and simple-minded if you insist, as those are a bit more subjective, but I'm certainly no bigot, which within the context of this discussion, I think we can appropriately use the definition, "a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance."

I am certainly not treating any members of a racial, ethnic, or religious, group with hatred and/or intolerance. Plain and simple, it just doesn't apply to me or the things that I'm saying.

I'm not going to engage in some weird little insult battle with you. I'm just going to explain myself here, more so for the others who read, and not you. I have a hard time believing that anything I could ever say would ever change your mind about anything at all, as you seem to be thoroughly convinced that you are just so much more intelligent than all of us simple-minded atheists here, and that while our opinions are just simple and narrow, yours are just so nuanced and paint a much clearer picture of what religion, and everything that surrounds it, really is all about.

There is something very off about how you deal with other people on this forum, and it truly makes people wonder (I know, for a fact I'm not the only individual) why you're a member here. Regardless, those are conversations for another time, potentially. Let's continue on.

A bigot is someone who looks at a huge diverse group and judges the whole group by its worst members.

The above statements show that you do exactly that.

Except that I'm literally not doing that at all Bel. I'm not sure how else to explain this to you. You seem to have purposefully ignored the part where I said:

And, to be even more specific, my issue is really with the ideas themselves more than the person who holds them.

If you want to claim that I'm making generalizations about religion itself, well then that's something we can talk about here. In fact, I was making a generalization about religion itself, simply to make a point: One does, in fact, need to suspend logic and reason to believe many claims that many different religions make. It's a very general point that can be demonstrated in a lot of different ways, which we can talk about further if you'd like. But to be honest, the only reason I was even saying that was to clarify that, in most, if not all, instances, my issues with religious people are not really issues with people at all, but rather the religions themselves.

So, you see, I'm literally doing the exact opposite of what you're saying. I'm not making any sort of hateful generalizations about a group of people based on race, ethnicity or religion. I'm explicitly saying that as far as the individual goes, I don't give a shit what you identify as, only that, if you're religious, there's a good chance that I could take issue with certain ideas that you hold. But once again, you could be a white Muslim from Iowa who is a diehard Yankees fan. I don't care. Because chances are you probably believe in some of the same silly stuff that the Syrian Muslim who was born in Turkey believes. And as to whatever those ideas may or may not be can be dissected at a later time; the simple point being that race, ethnicity and religion don't make me dislike or like an individual. But when it comes to religion, I may take issue with some ideas that one holds. It's nothing personal though.

I'm truly not sure how else I can explain this to you.

Religion is a huge undefinable constellation of things, with no clear essence.

What, exactly does this mean? What do you mean by religion having "no clear essence," precisely?

I do believe that religion, even if we look at just one religion like, let's say, Islam itself, we can see a vast array of cultures, ethnicity, races, nationalities, geographical locations, traditions, values, customs, practices and societal norms. So, I'm not denying, in any way shape or form, that the ecosystem, for lack of a better term, of even one religion itself can be very diverse.

However, if one calls oneself a Muslim, I'm willing to bet that there will be similarities in certain beliefs that span across that entire ecosystem, regardless of the many differing factors that can change across that ecosystem that I listed above. That doesn't mean, obviously, that we can put all Muslims into one box and say, "You all believe this and this and that and this and you're all big dumb dumbs for thinking it to be so!"

I feel like this is the picture you've painted in your head of how a lot of atheists think, and in my experience, that's simply not true. (Interesting little side note, you're complaining always on this forum about atheists oversimplifying religion and religious folks, but then you seem to do the same about atheists... weird, huh)

So, yeah, no one is denying that religion is vast and diverse. The world is vast and diverse, and there are all sorts of people out there. I've been lucky enough to travel a little bit and in the small amount of traveling I've done, I've met all kinds of folks. And, regardless of whatever characteristics you can use to try and define someone, you know what's true among most people?

If you're nice, and present yourself well to others, and you come across as non-judgmental and non-confrontational, i.e. if you just come across as a friend, rather than foe, most people will return that behavior without question. It's funny, because I've actually had friendlier conversations with religious folks, about religion, than I've had with you... a guy who is supposedly an atheist. Strange.

You've never read Wittgenstein, but if you had you would know that it works by "family resemblance," not any essential quality.

So yeah, what was the point of saying this? Other than pointing out that I've never read some author that you clearly have, and to remind me that there's a problem I'm unaware of in what I'm saying that you're not even going to bother to explain to me?

I mean seriously Bel, what was the point of even saying that? Be honest.

The fact that you reduce it in every case to the suspension of logical and critical thinking shows that you pick out one characteristic as essential and judge the whole thing by that characteristic. So you are a bigot.

I was not, in any way shape or form, "reduc[ing] every case to the suspension of logical and critical thinking," I was making a generalization to illustrate the fact that my issue lies almost always with the religion itself, and not with the person who belongs to that religion.

I'm basically repeating myself on this point here, so I'm not going to keep beating the dead horse. You can either pick up on this very simple and honest point, or you can choose not to. I have a feeling there's nothing I can say to convince you about anything though, so the most I can do is calmly explain my points of view to any other readers who might be going through all of this. So yeah, not sure what else to say here.

This is common among simple-minded atheists. They think of "religion" as only one thing, a single thing that can be judged and argued against. This is too simple.

See right here? If I wanted to do to you what you've been doing to me here in this post, I could exclaim, "Aha! You're calling all atheists simple-minded! You're saying we all think of religion as only one thing, a single thing that can be judged and argued against. But that's a very simplified  You're a bigot!"

You see how when I start with the false premise of "You're calling all atheists simple-minded," the rest of it just becomes false premise piled on top of false premise? That's exactly what you've done to me here. You're starting with the false premise of "ego death believes X about all religious people," but that premise is false, so everything you've piled on top of that has been false as well.

You really need to stop doing this. Saying, "some religious folks believe X, and I believe it's silly and illogical to believe X" is not at all the same as saying, "all religious folks believe X and since they believe X they are inferior, as people, to atheists."

You need to stop conflating these two ideas. Once again, I have a feeling you're doing it purposefully, but only you can know that for sure. I hope you're at least honest with yourself.

For example, you say that I "defend religion." But I don't defend -- or speak of -- "religion" as if it's only one thing. I do tend to point out that many of your criticisms of Christianity are foolishly simple, as when you write as if all Christians are sola scriptura literalists. When you make unfair and simple-minded statements, it is good for someone to correct you. Sadly, this would be a full-time job.

Sadly, this is just you taking more opportunities to insult me. There's nothing else to say in response to this paragraph other than that, other than you being incorrect about my thoughts here, unsurprisingly.

On this thread I have said nothing in defense of religion. I have acknowledged that different societies make different rules about how much of the body can be shown, but (unlike other people here) I have also pointed out that this varies within religions. There is no uniformity in the Muslim world on this point, and when simple-minded people write as if there is they should be corrected. I have also argued that if you accept your own society's rules concerning body coverage, but denounce another society's rules, you are being hypocritical. Because such rules are not disprovable (like belief in a flat earth) but social mores. 

So you are both simple-minded and bigoted. You think that your understanding is superior to religious people's understanding, and you maintain this illusion by reducing religious people's understanding to a stupid caricature.

So, once again, just more insults piled on top of insults. Not really sure why you're so angry, or why you feel the need to insult me so much, but I'm not getting into some weird flame war with you. I don't have the energy for that. I will, however, defend my ideas calmly and rationally, as I've done so far. If you want to continue to spew childish insults at me, that's up to you. That's your game, not mine, so I'm not gonna' play it. Sorry to disappoint you.