(September 7, 2021 at 10:52 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: God's existence is vastly more probable than not given the perceived order in the universe. Upon seeing a car engine, you immediately think of how skillful its designers must be, it's asinine to suggest it was put together without the existence of some intention. In the case of the universe, the analogy is valid, and the fact that complex entities evolved through time doesn't invalidate it, because the very process of evolution could be (is?) part of a divine intention. The basic argument then is that a personal, intentional agent behind the perceived order (regarding the arrangement of matter AND the physical laws) explains the universe's orderly nature better than a non-personal cause. This can be formulated better using bayesian-type arguments, by showing that the probability of order arising under a godless universe is vastly smaller than its counterpart (under theism), but this clearly requires some additional homework.
I disagree. The reason we can look at a car engine and know it was designed is that we know through experience that car engines don't arise spontaneously from the application of the laws of nature without a designer. But we also know that there are a great many situations where the laws of nature can produce high complexity *without* a designer being involved because of feedback loops and sensitive dependence on initial conditions.
As for the physical laws themselves, I think it is incoherent to talk about their being 'designed' or 'caused' simply because those physical laws are what govern causality. It is impossible to ask for a cause of causality in a coherent manner.
Instead, it is most coherent to have the laws be basic (uncaused) and the universe obeying such laws naturally. To postulate an intelligent designer requires a great deal *more* complexity. Think about what is required to even have a mind: the number of interacting parts, the feedback loops, the very laws of physics required to allow for such. When that is taken into account, it becomes far *more* probable that a few basic laws are fundamental and that consciousness, minds, and other things like that are the *result* of such laws, not the cause of them.