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[Serious] Thomism: Then & Now
#35
RE: Thomism: Then & Now
(October 11, 2021 at 12:13 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote:
(October 10, 2021 at 12:09 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Isn’t that what order is: being disposed towards a definite end?

Hell no.  There is no definite end.  The universe isn't deterministic.  If started identically 1000 times, it would evolve with subtle difference each time.

Order is simply a set of relationships.  If there is no order, there cannot be structure to existence, as complexity requires relationships to form.  With no relationships, there is no mathematics, no physics, no information, and no intelligence.

I would argue that without relationships, there is no way to even describe existence itself, or distinguish it from non-existence.

@Neo-Scholastic


I think Martha Nussbaum explains very clearly what Aristotle means by his four causes in this interview with Brian Magee. The part where she explains it begins at 27:15 and ends at 30:45... roughly 3 minutes. I think I set the video to start at the moment I'm speaking of, but I suck at that stuff, so you may have to do it manually.

I'm very interested in clearing up this fuzziness between physicists and Aristotle, because, as far as the four causes go, I don't think physicists should have a beef with Aristotle. He just uses his own (by now antiquated) nomenclature to describe nature. But it is in no way at odds with modern physics. Maybe I'm wrong there. I'd like to get HappySkeptic's opinion on things after hearing Nussbaum's take on the four causes.

I'd also like to hear if Neo agrees with Nussbaum's assessment.



Reply



Messages In This Thread
Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 6, 2021 at 6:10 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 6, 2021 at 8:12 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 7, 2021 at 9:10 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 8, 2021 at 5:57 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 8, 2021 at 7:33 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 8, 2021 at 7:37 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 9, 2021 at 9:48 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 10, 2021 at 12:45 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 13, 2021 at 2:45 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 13, 2021 at 3:20 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 13, 2021 at 3:23 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 13, 2021 at 3:25 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 13, 2021 at 3:26 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 8, 2021 at 2:54 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 8, 2021 at 4:23 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 8, 2021 at 5:59 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by brewer - October 8, 2021 at 8:30 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Jehanne - October 8, 2021 at 10:51 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 9, 2021 at 10:49 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 9, 2021 at 11:00 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 9, 2021 at 1:38 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 10, 2021 at 4:19 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 10, 2021 at 12:09 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 11, 2021 at 12:13 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 11, 2021 at 12:44 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 11, 2021 at 1:10 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 11, 2021 at 7:04 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 12, 2021 at 2:15 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 12, 2021 at 5:54 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 13, 2021 at 12:43 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 13, 2021 at 2:59 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 13, 2021 at 4:13 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 14, 2021 at 12:36 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 14, 2021 at 4:00 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 15, 2021 at 12:59 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 14, 2021 at 5:16 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 17, 2021 at 11:47 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 11, 2021 at 4:52 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 4:53 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 12, 2021 at 12:07 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 12, 2021 at 4:40 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 12, 2021 at 6:36 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Mister Agenda - October 12, 2021 at 10:57 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 12, 2021 at 11:01 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Mister Agenda - October 12, 2021 at 11:07 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 12:12 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 12, 2021 at 12:27 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 12, 2021 at 12:40 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 12:28 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 12, 2021 at 12:35 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 12:38 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 12, 2021 at 5:01 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 5:04 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 6:32 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 12, 2021 at 7:15 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 13, 2021 at 2:34 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 13, 2021 at 5:18 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 13, 2021 at 4:47 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 13, 2021 at 5:46 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 13, 2021 at 5:59 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 14, 2021 at 3:03 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 14, 2021 at 3:26 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 14, 2021 at 3:34 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 14, 2021 at 3:34 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 15, 2021 at 1:29 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 15, 2021 at 2:44 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 15, 2021 at 5:17 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 15, 2021 at 5:59 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 7:36 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 15, 2021 at 10:07 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 15, 2021 at 7:54 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 15, 2021 at 8:48 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 15, 2021 at 8:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 16, 2021 at 6:47 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 15, 2021 at 9:33 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 12:54 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 15, 2021 at 2:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 3:14 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 15, 2021 at 3:40 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 11:02 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 16, 2021 at 2:52 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 17, 2021 at 7:14 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 16, 2021 at 3:07 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 16, 2021 at 3:45 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 18, 2021 at 6:18 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 18, 2021 at 8:35 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 18, 2021 at 9:10 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 18, 2021 at 9:26 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 18, 2021 at 10:08 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 18, 2021 at 10:25 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 19, 2021 at 12:12 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 19, 2021 at 8:40 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 19, 2021 at 5:30 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 19, 2021 at 6:32 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 19, 2021 at 10:21 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 20, 2021 at 4:04 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 20, 2021 at 4:50 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 20, 2021 at 4:59 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 20, 2021 at 6:06 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 20, 2021 at 7:24 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 20, 2021 at 8:46 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 20, 2021 at 9:14 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 20, 2021 at 10:58 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 20, 2021 at 5:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 21, 2021 at 8:56 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 21, 2021 at 9:15 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 21, 2021 at 9:45 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 20, 2021 at 6:42 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 20, 2021 at 9:16 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 20, 2021 at 9:32 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 21, 2021 at 5:51 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 24, 2021 at 9:35 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 24, 2021 at 9:55 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 25, 2021 at 7:07 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by LadyForCamus - October 25, 2021 at 7:10 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 25, 2021 at 8:24 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by LadyForCamus - October 25, 2021 at 8:35 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 25, 2021 at 8:42 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 25, 2021 at 9:46 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 24, 2021 at 10:18 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 25, 2021 at 10:09 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 26, 2021 at 7:46 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 26, 2021 at 6:57 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 26, 2021 at 8:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 26, 2021 at 9:10 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 26, 2021 at 9:30 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 27, 2021 at 10:15 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 27, 2021 at 7:00 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 27, 2021 at 8:25 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 27, 2021 at 9:20 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 27, 2021 at 9:45 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 28, 2021 at 1:09 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 28, 2021 at 10:19 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 28, 2021 at 8:30 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 28, 2021 at 7:43 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 28, 2021 at 1:37 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 28, 2021 at 3:22 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 28, 2021 at 3:24 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 28, 2021 at 6:40 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 28, 2021 at 9:03 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 28, 2021 at 10:29 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 29, 2021 at 9:15 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 28, 2021 at 11:13 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 28, 2021 at 11:30 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 28, 2021 at 11:48 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 29, 2021 at 5:57 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 29, 2021 at 8:09 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 29, 2021 at 9:33 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 12:31 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 30, 2021 at 1:16 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 30, 2021 at 4:33 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 5:03 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 31, 2021 at 12:49 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 31, 2021 at 3:25 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 31, 2021 at 12:28 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 31, 2021 at 6:53 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 31, 2021 at 8:28 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - November 1, 2021 at 12:20 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - November 1, 2021 at 12:35 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - November 1, 2021 at 1:51 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Peebo-Thuhlu - November 1, 2021 at 4:51 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Peebo-Thuhlu - October 31, 2021 at 5:20 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 4:48 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 30, 2021 at 5:01 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 30, 2021 at 5:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 5:20 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 6:30 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 30, 2021 at 7:47 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 7:54 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 30, 2021 at 8:06 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - November 1, 2021 at 1:13 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - November 1, 2021 at 1:41 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 1:54 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - November 1, 2021 at 1:59 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 1, 2021 at 2:22 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 2:35 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 1, 2021 at 2:40 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 3:00 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - November 1, 2021 at 3:18 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 3:33 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 1, 2021 at 3:34 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 3:39 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 1, 2021 at 3:44 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 3:53 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 8:01 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - November 1, 2021 at 8:46 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 9:17 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - November 1, 2021 at 9:59 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 10:25 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 5, 2021 at 11:47 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - November 1, 2021 at 7:17 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - November 1, 2021 at 9:56 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 1, 2021 at 8:59 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 5, 2021 at 11:59 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 5, 2021 at 1:15 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 5, 2021 at 1:43 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 5, 2021 at 2:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 5, 2021 at 2:23 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 5, 2021 at 3:34 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 5, 2021 at 4:12 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 8, 2021 at 9:01 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - November 8, 2021 at 9:06 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 11, 2021 at 10:32 am

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