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[Serious] Thomism: Then & Now
#41
RE: Thomism: Then & Now
(October 12, 2021 at 4:40 pm)Nomad Wrote: ...
The biggest problem with Thomist thinking is that all his arguments necessitate that you start with the proposition "assume the christian god exists".  When your whole argument hangs on you first assuming your conclusion is true, then you have no argument.

Fair enough... I did have concerns about that myself, but since Neo's not even contesting that, I guess it's a moot point now.

(October 12, 2021 at 5:01 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Did Aquinas start with the conclusion and worked backwards? Sure, maybe he did. Does it matter? Not really. The logical structures of the 5W demonstration are solid so that’s not the issue. The main objection seems to be the typical ending of “…to which everyone gives the name of God.” This doesn’t bother me in the slightest. None of the 5W demonstrations “prove” the fullness of God’s revelation, which would be impossible and unreasonable to expect. Instead, each demonstration deals with a specific divine role such as Creator (1W & 2W), Sustainer (3W for embodiment, 5W for order), or Ultimate Truth (4W for reason and value). With respect to that limited goal, I find the 5W successful.

FWIW I'm still interested in learning all about this, even if it is based on circular reasoning. It's just an interesting subject, and as I said, it has also sparked an interest in classical philosophy for me, so that's a bonus.
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Messages In This Thread
Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 6, 2021 at 6:10 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 6, 2021 at 8:12 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 7, 2021 at 9:10 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 8, 2021 at 5:57 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 8, 2021 at 7:33 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 8, 2021 at 7:37 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 9, 2021 at 9:48 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 10, 2021 at 12:45 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 13, 2021 at 2:45 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 13, 2021 at 3:20 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 13, 2021 at 3:23 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 13, 2021 at 3:25 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 13, 2021 at 3:26 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 8, 2021 at 2:54 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 8, 2021 at 4:23 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 8, 2021 at 5:59 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by brewer - October 8, 2021 at 8:30 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Jehanne - October 8, 2021 at 10:51 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 9, 2021 at 10:49 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 9, 2021 at 11:00 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 9, 2021 at 1:38 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 10, 2021 at 4:19 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 10, 2021 at 12:09 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 11, 2021 at 12:13 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 11, 2021 at 12:44 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 11, 2021 at 1:10 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 11, 2021 at 7:04 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 12, 2021 at 2:15 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 12, 2021 at 5:54 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 13, 2021 at 12:43 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 13, 2021 at 2:59 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 13, 2021 at 4:13 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 14, 2021 at 12:36 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 14, 2021 at 4:00 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 15, 2021 at 12:59 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 14, 2021 at 5:16 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 17, 2021 at 11:47 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 11, 2021 at 4:52 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 4:53 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 12, 2021 at 12:07 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 12, 2021 at 4:40 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 12, 2021 at 6:36 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Mister Agenda - October 12, 2021 at 10:57 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 12, 2021 at 11:01 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Mister Agenda - October 12, 2021 at 11:07 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 12:12 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 12, 2021 at 12:27 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 12, 2021 at 12:40 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 12:28 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 12, 2021 at 12:35 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 12:38 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 12, 2021 at 5:01 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 5:04 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 6:32 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 12, 2021 at 7:15 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 13, 2021 at 2:34 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 13, 2021 at 5:18 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 13, 2021 at 4:47 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 13, 2021 at 5:46 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 13, 2021 at 5:59 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 14, 2021 at 3:03 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 14, 2021 at 3:26 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 14, 2021 at 3:34 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 14, 2021 at 3:34 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 15, 2021 at 1:29 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 15, 2021 at 2:44 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 15, 2021 at 5:17 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 15, 2021 at 5:59 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 7:36 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 15, 2021 at 10:07 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 15, 2021 at 7:54 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 15, 2021 at 8:48 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 15, 2021 at 8:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 16, 2021 at 6:47 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 15, 2021 at 9:33 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 12:54 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 15, 2021 at 2:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 3:14 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 15, 2021 at 3:40 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 11:02 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 16, 2021 at 2:52 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 17, 2021 at 7:14 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 16, 2021 at 3:07 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 16, 2021 at 3:45 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 18, 2021 at 6:18 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 18, 2021 at 8:35 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 18, 2021 at 9:10 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 18, 2021 at 9:26 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 18, 2021 at 10:08 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 18, 2021 at 10:25 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 19, 2021 at 12:12 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 19, 2021 at 8:40 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 19, 2021 at 5:30 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 19, 2021 at 6:32 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 19, 2021 at 10:21 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 20, 2021 at 4:04 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 20, 2021 at 4:50 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 20, 2021 at 4:59 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 20, 2021 at 6:06 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 20, 2021 at 7:24 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 20, 2021 at 8:46 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 20, 2021 at 9:14 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 20, 2021 at 10:58 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 20, 2021 at 5:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 21, 2021 at 8:56 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 21, 2021 at 9:15 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 21, 2021 at 9:45 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 20, 2021 at 6:42 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 20, 2021 at 9:16 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 20, 2021 at 9:32 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 21, 2021 at 5:51 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 24, 2021 at 9:35 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 24, 2021 at 9:55 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 25, 2021 at 7:07 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by LadyForCamus - October 25, 2021 at 7:10 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 25, 2021 at 8:24 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by LadyForCamus - October 25, 2021 at 8:35 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 25, 2021 at 8:42 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 25, 2021 at 9:46 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 24, 2021 at 10:18 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 25, 2021 at 10:09 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 26, 2021 at 7:46 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 26, 2021 at 6:57 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 26, 2021 at 8:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 26, 2021 at 9:10 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 26, 2021 at 9:30 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 27, 2021 at 10:15 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 27, 2021 at 7:00 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 27, 2021 at 8:25 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 27, 2021 at 9:20 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 27, 2021 at 9:45 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 28, 2021 at 1:09 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 28, 2021 at 10:19 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 28, 2021 at 8:30 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 28, 2021 at 7:43 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 28, 2021 at 1:37 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 28, 2021 at 3:22 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 28, 2021 at 3:24 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 28, 2021 at 6:40 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 28, 2021 at 9:03 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 28, 2021 at 10:29 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 29, 2021 at 9:15 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 28, 2021 at 11:13 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 28, 2021 at 11:30 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 28, 2021 at 11:48 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 29, 2021 at 5:57 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 29, 2021 at 8:09 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 29, 2021 at 9:33 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 12:31 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 30, 2021 at 1:16 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 30, 2021 at 4:33 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 5:03 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 31, 2021 at 12:49 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 31, 2021 at 3:25 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 31, 2021 at 12:28 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 31, 2021 at 6:53 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 31, 2021 at 8:28 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - November 1, 2021 at 12:20 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - November 1, 2021 at 12:35 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - November 1, 2021 at 1:51 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Peebo-Thuhlu - November 1, 2021 at 4:51 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Peebo-Thuhlu - October 31, 2021 at 5:20 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 4:48 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 30, 2021 at 5:01 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 30, 2021 at 5:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 5:20 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 6:30 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 30, 2021 at 7:47 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 7:54 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 30, 2021 at 8:06 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - November 1, 2021 at 1:13 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - November 1, 2021 at 1:41 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 1:54 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - November 1, 2021 at 1:59 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 1, 2021 at 2:22 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 2:35 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 1, 2021 at 2:40 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 3:00 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - November 1, 2021 at 3:18 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 3:33 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 1, 2021 at 3:34 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 3:39 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 1, 2021 at 3:44 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 3:53 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 8:01 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - November 1, 2021 at 8:46 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 9:17 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - November 1, 2021 at 9:59 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 10:25 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 5, 2021 at 11:47 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - November 1, 2021 at 7:17 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - November 1, 2021 at 9:56 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 1, 2021 at 8:59 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 5, 2021 at 11:59 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 5, 2021 at 1:15 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 5, 2021 at 1:43 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 5, 2021 at 2:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 5, 2021 at 2:23 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 5, 2021 at 3:34 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 5, 2021 at 4:12 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 8, 2021 at 9:01 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - November 8, 2021 at 9:06 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 11, 2021 at 10:32 am

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