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[Serious] Thomism: Then & Now
RE: Thomism: Then & Now
(November 1, 2021 at 1:41 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: I was doing some sticking-up for the plausibility of mereological nihilism there…I tend to think "allness" and "units" are real. I tend to think chairs are real. The form of the chair is intelligible, therefore the intelligible form of the chair is real. I think the same way about human rights, morality, and justice. All real.

Yes, I may have been a little to dismissive of mereological nihilism. Consider it a misguided attempt to steer us back towards the merits and shortcomings of the 5 Ways within the Scholastic framework. That, as opposed to defending the Scholastic framework itself from anti-realism or Pyrrhonian skepticism.

(November 1, 2021 at 1:41 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: An atheist could say allness and units are simply attributes of a godless reality. I'm not sure what makes God relevant to the claim that allness or units are real.

Then at least as far as the 4th Way is concerned atheists such as yourself believe in God 😊

Quote:The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

My strike-through because Thomas uses an archaic physical example based on fire and heat. The issue remains the same though. Does recognition of degrees of perfection within the patterns of nature allow us to infer a real standard of perfection. Or at least allows us to concieve various relative perfections, which is what intelligibility is kinda all about, isn't it?

(November 1, 2021 at 1:41 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: I personally think Plato was on to something as far as numbers and math being real, permanent, immutable, and unchangeable… And I think that's what gets theists all excited about bringing their god into the equation…NOT, therefore "God."

I agree that the 5 Ways don’t get you to the Jehovah God found in scripture. At the same time, whatever numbers are they are NOT part of physical reality. So at the bare minimum, there is a type of reality that transcends the limits of the physical universe. IMHO that makes materialism false.
<insert profound quote here>
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Messages In This Thread
Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 6, 2021 at 6:10 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 6, 2021 at 8:12 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 7, 2021 at 9:10 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 8, 2021 at 5:57 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 8, 2021 at 7:33 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 8, 2021 at 7:37 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 9, 2021 at 9:48 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 10, 2021 at 12:45 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 13, 2021 at 2:45 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 13, 2021 at 3:20 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 13, 2021 at 3:23 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 13, 2021 at 3:25 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 13, 2021 at 3:26 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 8, 2021 at 2:54 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 8, 2021 at 4:23 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 8, 2021 at 5:59 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by brewer - October 8, 2021 at 8:30 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Jehanne - October 8, 2021 at 10:51 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 9, 2021 at 10:49 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 9, 2021 at 11:00 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 9, 2021 at 1:38 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 10, 2021 at 4:19 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 10, 2021 at 12:09 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 11, 2021 at 12:13 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 11, 2021 at 12:44 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 11, 2021 at 1:10 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 11, 2021 at 7:04 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 12, 2021 at 2:15 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 12, 2021 at 5:54 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 13, 2021 at 12:43 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 13, 2021 at 2:59 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 13, 2021 at 4:13 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 14, 2021 at 12:36 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 14, 2021 at 4:00 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 15, 2021 at 12:59 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 14, 2021 at 5:16 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 17, 2021 at 11:47 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 11, 2021 at 4:52 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 4:53 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 12, 2021 at 12:07 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by GUBU - October 12, 2021 at 4:40 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 12, 2021 at 6:36 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Mister Agenda - October 12, 2021 at 10:57 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 12, 2021 at 11:01 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Mister Agenda - October 12, 2021 at 11:07 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 12:12 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 12, 2021 at 12:27 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 12, 2021 at 12:40 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 12:28 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 12, 2021 at 12:35 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 12:38 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 12, 2021 at 5:01 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 5:04 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2021 at 6:32 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 12, 2021 at 7:15 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 13, 2021 at 2:34 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 13, 2021 at 5:18 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 13, 2021 at 4:47 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 13, 2021 at 5:46 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 13, 2021 at 5:59 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 14, 2021 at 3:03 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 14, 2021 at 3:26 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 14, 2021 at 3:34 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 14, 2021 at 3:34 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 15, 2021 at 1:29 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 15, 2021 at 2:44 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 15, 2021 at 5:17 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 15, 2021 at 5:59 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 7:36 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 15, 2021 at 10:07 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 15, 2021 at 7:54 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 15, 2021 at 8:48 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 15, 2021 at 8:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 16, 2021 at 6:47 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 15, 2021 at 9:33 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 12:54 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 15, 2021 at 2:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 3:14 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 15, 2021 at 3:40 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 15, 2021 at 11:02 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 16, 2021 at 2:52 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 17, 2021 at 7:14 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 16, 2021 at 3:07 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 16, 2021 at 3:45 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 18, 2021 at 6:18 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 18, 2021 at 8:35 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 18, 2021 at 9:10 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 18, 2021 at 9:26 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by HappySkeptic - October 18, 2021 at 10:08 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 18, 2021 at 10:25 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 19, 2021 at 12:12 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 19, 2021 at 8:40 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 19, 2021 at 5:30 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 19, 2021 at 6:32 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 19, 2021 at 10:21 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 20, 2021 at 4:04 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 20, 2021 at 4:50 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 20, 2021 at 4:59 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 20, 2021 at 6:06 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 20, 2021 at 7:24 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 20, 2021 at 8:46 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 20, 2021 at 9:14 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by DLJ - October 20, 2021 at 10:58 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 20, 2021 at 5:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 21, 2021 at 8:56 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 21, 2021 at 9:15 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 21, 2021 at 9:45 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 20, 2021 at 6:42 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 20, 2021 at 9:16 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 20, 2021 at 9:32 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 21, 2021 at 5:51 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 24, 2021 at 9:35 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 24, 2021 at 9:55 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 25, 2021 at 7:07 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by LadyForCamus - October 25, 2021 at 7:10 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 25, 2021 at 8:24 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by LadyForCamus - October 25, 2021 at 8:35 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 25, 2021 at 8:42 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 25, 2021 at 9:46 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 24, 2021 at 10:18 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 25, 2021 at 10:09 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 26, 2021 at 7:46 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 26, 2021 at 6:57 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 26, 2021 at 8:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 26, 2021 at 9:10 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 26, 2021 at 9:30 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 27, 2021 at 10:15 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 27, 2021 at 7:00 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 27, 2021 at 8:25 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 27, 2021 at 9:20 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 27, 2021 at 9:45 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 28, 2021 at 1:09 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 28, 2021 at 10:19 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 28, 2021 at 8:30 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 28, 2021 at 7:43 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 28, 2021 at 1:37 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 28, 2021 at 3:22 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - October 28, 2021 at 3:24 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 28, 2021 at 6:40 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 28, 2021 at 9:03 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 28, 2021 at 10:29 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 29, 2021 at 9:15 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 28, 2021 at 11:13 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 28, 2021 at 11:30 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Oldandeasilyconfused - October 28, 2021 at 11:48 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 29, 2021 at 5:57 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 29, 2021 at 8:09 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 29, 2021 at 9:33 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 12:31 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - October 30, 2021 at 1:16 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 30, 2021 at 4:33 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 5:03 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - October 31, 2021 at 12:49 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 31, 2021 at 3:25 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 31, 2021 at 12:28 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 31, 2021 at 6:53 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 31, 2021 at 8:28 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - November 1, 2021 at 12:20 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - November 1, 2021 at 12:35 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - November 1, 2021 at 1:51 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Peebo-Thuhlu - November 1, 2021 at 4:51 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Peebo-Thuhlu - October 31, 2021 at 5:20 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 4:48 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 30, 2021 at 5:01 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - October 30, 2021 at 5:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 5:20 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 6:30 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 30, 2021 at 7:47 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - October 30, 2021 at 7:54 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - October 30, 2021 at 8:06 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - November 1, 2021 at 1:13 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - November 1, 2021 at 1:41 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 1:54 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Angrboda - November 1, 2021 at 1:59 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 1, 2021 at 2:22 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 2:35 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 1, 2021 at 2:40 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 3:00 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - November 1, 2021 at 3:18 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 3:33 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 1, 2021 at 3:34 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 3:39 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 1, 2021 at 3:44 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 3:53 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 8:01 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - November 1, 2021 at 8:46 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 9:17 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Belacqua - November 1, 2021 at 9:59 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 1, 2021 at 10:25 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 5, 2021 at 11:47 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by Neo-Scholastic - November 1, 2021 at 7:17 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - November 1, 2021 at 9:56 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 1, 2021 at 8:59 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 5, 2021 at 11:59 am
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 5, 2021 at 1:15 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 5, 2021 at 1:43 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 5, 2021 at 2:11 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 5, 2021 at 2:23 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 5, 2021 at 3:34 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by The Grand Nudger - November 5, 2021 at 4:12 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 8, 2021 at 9:01 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by vulcanlogician - November 8, 2021 at 9:06 pm
RE: Thomism: Then & Now - by emjay - November 11, 2021 at 10:32 am

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