RE: Why did god create evil?
December 3, 2011 at 10:42 pm
(This post was last modified: December 3, 2011 at 11:58 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I'm sorry, perhaps we're suffering a disconnect here do to differences of language. Are you not arguing that "soul" is a product (or invention) of egyptian philosophers and not a common belief of the egyptian people (or any people, were it not for those philosophers)?
Northern European (think frozen north) and Native American. They appear to have come up with the idea themselves, as far back as the paleolithic, and long before any contact or influence had been exerted by any of the traditions you offer as the origin of any "soul" even existed. You'd have to argue for egyptian boats crossing the atlantic and teaching their religion to the cherokee (and probably more than a few sub-saharan africans), if you wanted it to have any sort of universal applicability to me, or the cultures of the people I call my ancestors. Unless that's not what you're arguing, of course.
The version would depend on which people we wanted to focus on. In all cases we have their burials, their art, and their artifacts. All of which seem to point to a belief in an afterlife, souls, etc. All of which predate civilization itself, let alone egyptian civilization.
You aren't, but "we" as in the collective human "we", have been. See above. Judging by the pieces you have linked in your article you should be aware of the evidence we have for religious behavior. Specifically ritual burials and all that they would suggest. You should also be aware that this evidence goes back to the paleolithic (and isn't limited to our own species, but can be accredited to others in our genus). In either case (northern europe or north america), there are afterlives and souls.
Sure, if you mean "we all passed through the near east". That doesn't mean that all of our beliefs have their origins in what people in the near east believed tens of thousand of years after we did so. If you're arguing that the traditional beliefs of the people of egypt were somehow different than that which egyptian philosophers later imposed, then those (non soul) beliefs would be the only ones we carried away with us (if we carried them away at all), wouldn't they? Yet we see evidence of a belief in an afterlife and soul almost anywhere we care to look.
No, Dtango, we hear christians tell us how all other myths or religions are somehow derived from or a perversion of their favorite myths. Which seems to be what you're implying here. Christianity is a near eastern tradition, and it has many parrallels in other near eastern traditions. Unsurprising, since they are all near eastern traditions. Epi asked you the question that he did because you seem to be implying that the idea of a soul is somehow definitively egyptian, and has it's origin in egyptian civilization and philosophy. If this isn't what you mean to suggest, I apologize. If it is would you care to explain the apparent belief in souls in the paleolithic world, or among native americans? In the first case there was no such thing as an egyptian philosopher or egyptian civilization. In the second, you have two massive bodies of water in addition to the span of time I've already mentioned, as well as no trace of any interaction whatsoever. In both cases there are afterlives and souls. The landscape of religious and mythological tradition is so vast in time, geography, and disparity that any attempt to pigeonhole any integral part of it (such as a soul or afterlife) as the sole domain of any given people; with all others borrowing the concept, is to engage in the least reasonable or demonstrable sort of tunnel vision imaginable. The only thing that can be said for the entirety of these traditions with any confidence is that they are the product of the human mind as a whole, and not a single human mind, or the minds of a single part of this larger tradition overall. Through the course of time all of our different traditions have come into contact with each other, but to assume an unbroken chain between egyptian thought on the matter and all other descriptions of souls or the afterlife is not only unsupported by evidence, it ignores a vast body of evidence to the contrary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Amer...ted_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_paganism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_polytheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_paganism
Another link, because it has a hell of alot to say about this
"Anatomically modern humans originated in Africa about 200,000 years ago, reaching full behavioral modernity around 50,000 years ago."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human
Italics are mine, the position is not. That would be the Smithsonian's position on the matter. Based upon evidence which you can find links to and descriptions of in the link at the very bottom. Behavioral modernity includes religious thinking (afterlives being one of the oldest parts of this). That's a gap of nearly 45,000 years between behavioral modernity and egyptian civilization. We've been engaging in ritual burials for nearly 300,000 years (notice the 100,000 year head-start that burial rites have on anatomically modern humans). An even greater gap.
http://humanorigins.si.edu/
(every now and then I like to defend myths, rather than shit on them)
Northern European (think frozen north) and Native American. They appear to have come up with the idea themselves, as far back as the paleolithic, and long before any contact or influence had been exerted by any of the traditions you offer as the origin of any "soul" even existed. You'd have to argue for egyptian boats crossing the atlantic and teaching their religion to the cherokee (and probably more than a few sub-saharan africans), if you wanted it to have any sort of universal applicability to me, or the cultures of the people I call my ancestors. Unless that's not what you're arguing, of course.
The version would depend on which people we wanted to focus on. In all cases we have their burials, their art, and their artifacts. All of which seem to point to a belief in an afterlife, souls, etc. All of which predate civilization itself, let alone egyptian civilization.
You aren't, but "we" as in the collective human "we", have been. See above. Judging by the pieces you have linked in your article you should be aware of the evidence we have for religious behavior. Specifically ritual burials and all that they would suggest. You should also be aware that this evidence goes back to the paleolithic (and isn't limited to our own species, but can be accredited to others in our genus). In either case (northern europe or north america), there are afterlives and souls.
Sure, if you mean "we all passed through the near east". That doesn't mean that all of our beliefs have their origins in what people in the near east believed tens of thousand of years after we did so. If you're arguing that the traditional beliefs of the people of egypt were somehow different than that which egyptian philosophers later imposed, then those (non soul) beliefs would be the only ones we carried away with us (if we carried them away at all), wouldn't they? Yet we see evidence of a belief in an afterlife and soul almost anywhere we care to look.
No, Dtango, we hear christians tell us how all other myths or religions are somehow derived from or a perversion of their favorite myths. Which seems to be what you're implying here. Christianity is a near eastern tradition, and it has many parrallels in other near eastern traditions. Unsurprising, since they are all near eastern traditions. Epi asked you the question that he did because you seem to be implying that the idea of a soul is somehow definitively egyptian, and has it's origin in egyptian civilization and philosophy. If this isn't what you mean to suggest, I apologize. If it is would you care to explain the apparent belief in souls in the paleolithic world, or among native americans? In the first case there was no such thing as an egyptian philosopher or egyptian civilization. In the second, you have two massive bodies of water in addition to the span of time I've already mentioned, as well as no trace of any interaction whatsoever. In both cases there are afterlives and souls. The landscape of religious and mythological tradition is so vast in time, geography, and disparity that any attempt to pigeonhole any integral part of it (such as a soul or afterlife) as the sole domain of any given people; with all others borrowing the concept, is to engage in the least reasonable or demonstrable sort of tunnel vision imaginable. The only thing that can be said for the entirety of these traditions with any confidence is that they are the product of the human mind as a whole, and not a single human mind, or the minds of a single part of this larger tradition overall. Through the course of time all of our different traditions have come into contact with each other, but to assume an unbroken chain between egyptian thought on the matter and all other descriptions of souls or the afterlife is not only unsupported by evidence, it ignores a vast body of evidence to the contrary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Amer...ted_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_paganism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_polytheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_paganism
Another link, because it has a hell of alot to say about this
"Anatomically modern humans originated in Africa about 200,000 years ago, reaching full behavioral modernity around 50,000 years ago."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human
Italics are mine, the position is not. That would be the Smithsonian's position on the matter. Based upon evidence which you can find links to and descriptions of in the link at the very bottom. Behavioral modernity includes religious thinking (afterlives being one of the oldest parts of this). That's a gap of nearly 45,000 years between behavioral modernity and egyptian civilization. We've been engaging in ritual burials for nearly 300,000 years (notice the 100,000 year head-start that burial rites have on anatomically modern humans). An even greater gap.
http://humanorigins.si.edu/
(every now and then I like to defend myths, rather than shit on them)
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