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		<title><![CDATA[Atheist Forums - Skepticism & Pseudoscience]]></title>
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		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2026 20:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[A look at psychic readings]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-66540.html</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2025 00:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-66540.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[I wanted to take a look at the psychic readings and analyze them how psychic they really are, but the only ones I have are from celebrities. So I looked into a few autobiographies and analyzed those. Now, of course, you can give your opinion about my analysis or some other comment.<br />
<br />
The main problem is that those are not objective recordings but an interpretation by the person relaying the story, but we can still try at least for entertainment purposes.<br />
<br />
Testimonies are under the hide tags so that the post doesn't look too bloated.<br />
<br />
<br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">Michael Crichton</span> was in London making the movie "Great Train Robbery" (1979) when he decided to visit a slew of psychics.<br />
<br />
<div>
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    <div class="spoiler" style="display: none;"><hr>
She saw me working in a room like a laundry, with huge white baskets, and there were black snakes coiling in the baskets, except that they weren’t snakes. And she heard this terrible sound, repeated over and over again, a kind of Whaaaa-whoooo, whoooo-whaaaa, and she saw pictures going forward and backward, forward and backward. And something about hats, or high hats, or old-style fashion.<br />
<br />
This was what she couldn’t put together. And she found it unpleasant, these sounds and snakes and things. She said, “You are the most peculiar person.”<br />
<br />
I, of course, knew exactly what she was seeing. She was seeing the place I had been virtually living in for the last two weeks, the editing room where we ran the film back and forth to the accompaniment of those hideous sounds. The film was The Great Train Robbery and the actors all wore high hats.<br />
<br />
There was absolutely no way this little blind lady with swollen ankles could have known about that. No matter how I might have failed to control my body movement, my verbalizations and grunts, no matter how much she might have feigned blindness as she did a “cold reading” on me, I knew damned well I couldn’t have conveyed to her images of what an editing room looked like—images she would misconstrue as a laundry with snakes. I hadn’t tipped her off about that. It wasn’t possible.<br />
<br />
So where had she gotten the information?<br />
<br />
I could think of two possibilities. One was that she had been informed. I had made my appointment by phone under a different name, but when I walked in the building, I might conceivably have been recognized by someone at the desk, and this person might have somehow told the woman who I was, that I had something to do with movies. There wasn’t any phone in the psychic’s room that I could see, but you never knew. Being informed would explain everything.<br />
<br />
The other possibility was that she was psychic, and the phenomenon was real.<br />
<hr></div>
</div>
<br />
<br />
 Crichton is trying to rationalize how the psychic could know all that stuff about him, but she gave such a metaphorical reading that it could apply to almost anyone. She said that he works in a room with black snakes in baskets, that there are strange noises, that there are pictures going around, and that there are old hats, and that it looks like a laundry room. So Crichton took it to mean a film editing room: black snakes are film roles, there is strange noise, pictures are pictures of the movie being projected with people wearing old hats, and apparently it all looks like a laundry room.<br />
<br />
But many people work in a place with strange noise. Black snakes can also be all sorts of cables (computer or TV or those that hold lamps from a ceiling), or if you work in a clothes store, they can be ties or socks, etc. Old hats—maybe someone has photos of people with old hats or who wear "strange" hats in the workplace (as many people do). Pictures going forward and backward—if they have a TV in the office or workplace, that would also work or maybe they have a calendar with pictures that they change or in the classroom they have things that project pictures and text on the blackboard, etc.<br />
<br />
The second psychic Crichton went to. This time he had to give the psychic his watch to hold and read from it<br />
<br />
<div>
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    <div class="spoiler" style="display: none;"><hr>
“Do you believe in spiritualism?” he said.<br />
<br />
“I don’t know.”<br />
<br />
“Was your grandfather a soldier?”<br />
<br />
“I don’t know.”<br />
<br />
“I see, you’re one of those who say the same thing all the time, are you? Don’t want to give me any help, is that it?”<br />
<br />
“I don’t know,” I said. I was following my plan, but it seemed stupid.<br />
<br />
“It doesn’t matter,” he said. “Please yourself. I see your grandfather riding on a horse; he looks like a soldier. I see your grandfather working with stone. I see chips of stone on the ground; he works with stone.”<br />
<br />
My grandfather died in the army, in the influenza epidemic of 1919, before my father was born. My grandfather had worked as a gravestone cutter. I had seen photographs.<br />
<br />
“Your father is dead,” the psychic said. “Recently passed over?”<br />
<br />
My father had died eight months before. “Yes,” I said.<br />
<br />
“He’s all right. Your mother is grieving too much. You should tell her that your father is all right and he wants her to stop grieving so much. Will you tell your mother that?”<br />
<br />
“Yes.” Thinking, Oh brother, sure. I’m going to call my mother up and say, Some obnoxious little creep held my watch and said that Dad is on the Other Side and everything is fine, Mom. Sure I am.<br />
<br />
And also thinking this was a stock situation. Once this guy had guessed that my father had recently died, then he could say, without much fear of contradiction, that my mother was grieving too much and that I should tell her Dad was okay. It was a stock situation and it didn’t mean anything.<br />
<br />
“Your father did some good things and some bad things.”<br />
<br />
Another stock comment. Applicable to any dead person. I was unimpressed.<br />
<br />
“Your father feels bad about what he did to you.”<br />
<br />
I said nothing.<br />
<br />
“Your father did the best he could with you, but you see, he had no father of his own to teach him.”<br />
<br />
That was true. And not easy to guess.<br />
<br />
“Your father didn’t know how to behave around you, and you of course intimidated him. So you and he had difficulties. But he knows he injured you, and now he feels bad about it. He wants you to know that. He wants to help you now.”<br />
<br />
I said nothing.<br />
<br />
“Often at night you walk in the city. At those times your father is close to you, and he wishes to help you.”<br />
<br />
In London, I had been seeing a woman who lived near my hotel. I would often walk home at night, enjoying the cool air and the light London fog, and during those times I would think of my father.<br />
<br />
“I get that your sister is a lawyer,” he said suddenly. “But she is American. Why is she in England?”<br />
<br />
My sister and her husband were at that moment on vacation in England. Somewhere—I hadn’t seen them yet, and wouldn’t until they arrived in London at the end of the month.<br />
<hr></div>
</div>
<br />
<br />
So this time a psychic guessed that Crichton's granddad was a soldier—which is not so hard to guess. He also said that he worked with stone, which is also not far-fetched for people living at the beginning of the 20th century.<br />
<br />
Then he guessed that Crichton's dad is dead—to which even Crichton is not that impressed. Indeed, he asked him if his dad is dead, to which he said, "Yes."<br />
<br />
What fascinated Crichton was that he guessed that Crichton's grandfather wasn't there for Crichton's dad and that Crichton felt like his dad wasn't there for him. But that is not only not fascinating, it's also a trope. For example, in Chuck Palahniuk's novel "Fight Club," in the prologue or epilogue, Palahniuk writes how he discovered that almost every guy feels like his father let him down and that even his own father feels like his father let him down.<br />
<br />
Then he says that Crichton walks around at night. That doesn't seem like a hard guess.<br />
<br />
What is perhaps most fascinating is that he guessed that his sister is a lawyer and is currently in England. But then again, we don't have the objective transcript, and how could he have known that or if she's really a lawyer or something related to it, or maybe she is a law school dropout.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[I wanted to take a look at the psychic readings and analyze them how psychic they really are, but the only ones I have are from celebrities. So I looked into a few autobiographies and analyzed those. Now, of course, you can give your opinion about my analysis or some other comment.<br />
<br />
The main problem is that those are not objective recordings but an interpretation by the person relaying the story, but we can still try at least for entertainment purposes.<br />
<br />
Testimonies are under the hide tags so that the post doesn't look too bloated.<br />
<br />
<br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">Michael Crichton</span> was in London making the movie "Great Train Robbery" (1979) when he decided to visit a slew of psychics.<br />
<br />
<div>
    <div class="pre-spoiler">
    <input type="button" value="Show Content" style="width:80px;font-size:10px;margin:0px;padding:0px;" onclick="if (this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display != '') { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display = '';this.value = 'Hide Content'; } else { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display = 'none'; this.value = 'Show Content';}"><br />
    </div>
    <div class="spoiler" style="display: none;"><hr>
She saw me working in a room like a laundry, with huge white baskets, and there were black snakes coiling in the baskets, except that they weren’t snakes. And she heard this terrible sound, repeated over and over again, a kind of Whaaaa-whoooo, whoooo-whaaaa, and she saw pictures going forward and backward, forward and backward. And something about hats, or high hats, or old-style fashion.<br />
<br />
This was what she couldn’t put together. And she found it unpleasant, these sounds and snakes and things. She said, “You are the most peculiar person.”<br />
<br />
I, of course, knew exactly what she was seeing. She was seeing the place I had been virtually living in for the last two weeks, the editing room where we ran the film back and forth to the accompaniment of those hideous sounds. The film was The Great Train Robbery and the actors all wore high hats.<br />
<br />
There was absolutely no way this little blind lady with swollen ankles could have known about that. No matter how I might have failed to control my body movement, my verbalizations and grunts, no matter how much she might have feigned blindness as she did a “cold reading” on me, I knew damned well I couldn’t have conveyed to her images of what an editing room looked like—images she would misconstrue as a laundry with snakes. I hadn’t tipped her off about that. It wasn’t possible.<br />
<br />
So where had she gotten the information?<br />
<br />
I could think of two possibilities. One was that she had been informed. I had made my appointment by phone under a different name, but when I walked in the building, I might conceivably have been recognized by someone at the desk, and this person might have somehow told the woman who I was, that I had something to do with movies. There wasn’t any phone in the psychic’s room that I could see, but you never knew. Being informed would explain everything.<br />
<br />
The other possibility was that she was psychic, and the phenomenon was real.<br />
<hr></div>
</div>
<br />
<br />
 Crichton is trying to rationalize how the psychic could know all that stuff about him, but she gave such a metaphorical reading that it could apply to almost anyone. She said that he works in a room with black snakes in baskets, that there are strange noises, that there are pictures going around, and that there are old hats, and that it looks like a laundry room. So Crichton took it to mean a film editing room: black snakes are film roles, there is strange noise, pictures are pictures of the movie being projected with people wearing old hats, and apparently it all looks like a laundry room.<br />
<br />
But many people work in a place with strange noise. Black snakes can also be all sorts of cables (computer or TV or those that hold lamps from a ceiling), or if you work in a clothes store, they can be ties or socks, etc. Old hats—maybe someone has photos of people with old hats or who wear "strange" hats in the workplace (as many people do). Pictures going forward and backward—if they have a TV in the office or workplace, that would also work or maybe they have a calendar with pictures that they change or in the classroom they have things that project pictures and text on the blackboard, etc.<br />
<br />
The second psychic Crichton went to. This time he had to give the psychic his watch to hold and read from it<br />
<br />
<div>
    <div class="pre-spoiler">
    <input type="button" value="Show Content" style="width:80px;font-size:10px;margin:0px;padding:0px;" onclick="if (this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display != '') { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display = '';this.value = 'Hide Content'; } else { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display = 'none'; this.value = 'Show Content';}"><br />
    </div>
    <div class="spoiler" style="display: none;"><hr>
“Do you believe in spiritualism?” he said.<br />
<br />
“I don’t know.”<br />
<br />
“Was your grandfather a soldier?”<br />
<br />
“I don’t know.”<br />
<br />
“I see, you’re one of those who say the same thing all the time, are you? Don’t want to give me any help, is that it?”<br />
<br />
“I don’t know,” I said. I was following my plan, but it seemed stupid.<br />
<br />
“It doesn’t matter,” he said. “Please yourself. I see your grandfather riding on a horse; he looks like a soldier. I see your grandfather working with stone. I see chips of stone on the ground; he works with stone.”<br />
<br />
My grandfather died in the army, in the influenza epidemic of 1919, before my father was born. My grandfather had worked as a gravestone cutter. I had seen photographs.<br />
<br />
“Your father is dead,” the psychic said. “Recently passed over?”<br />
<br />
My father had died eight months before. “Yes,” I said.<br />
<br />
“He’s all right. Your mother is grieving too much. You should tell her that your father is all right and he wants her to stop grieving so much. Will you tell your mother that?”<br />
<br />
“Yes.” Thinking, Oh brother, sure. I’m going to call my mother up and say, Some obnoxious little creep held my watch and said that Dad is on the Other Side and everything is fine, Mom. Sure I am.<br />
<br />
And also thinking this was a stock situation. Once this guy had guessed that my father had recently died, then he could say, without much fear of contradiction, that my mother was grieving too much and that I should tell her Dad was okay. It was a stock situation and it didn’t mean anything.<br />
<br />
“Your father did some good things and some bad things.”<br />
<br />
Another stock comment. Applicable to any dead person. I was unimpressed.<br />
<br />
“Your father feels bad about what he did to you.”<br />
<br />
I said nothing.<br />
<br />
“Your father did the best he could with you, but you see, he had no father of his own to teach him.”<br />
<br />
That was true. And not easy to guess.<br />
<br />
“Your father didn’t know how to behave around you, and you of course intimidated him. So you and he had difficulties. But he knows he injured you, and now he feels bad about it. He wants you to know that. He wants to help you now.”<br />
<br />
I said nothing.<br />
<br />
“Often at night you walk in the city. At those times your father is close to you, and he wishes to help you.”<br />
<br />
In London, I had been seeing a woman who lived near my hotel. I would often walk home at night, enjoying the cool air and the light London fog, and during those times I would think of my father.<br />
<br />
“I get that your sister is a lawyer,” he said suddenly. “But she is American. Why is she in England?”<br />
<br />
My sister and her husband were at that moment on vacation in England. Somewhere—I hadn’t seen them yet, and wouldn’t until they arrived in London at the end of the month.<br />
<hr></div>
</div>
<br />
<br />
So this time a psychic guessed that Crichton's granddad was a soldier—which is not so hard to guess. He also said that he worked with stone, which is also not far-fetched for people living at the beginning of the 20th century.<br />
<br />
Then he guessed that Crichton's dad is dead—to which even Crichton is not that impressed. Indeed, he asked him if his dad is dead, to which he said, "Yes."<br />
<br />
What fascinated Crichton was that he guessed that Crichton's grandfather wasn't there for Crichton's dad and that Crichton felt like his dad wasn't there for him. But that is not only not fascinating, it's also a trope. For example, in Chuck Palahniuk's novel "Fight Club," in the prologue or epilogue, Palahniuk writes how he discovered that almost every guy feels like his father let him down and that even his own father feels like his father let him down.<br />
<br />
Then he says that Crichton walks around at night. That doesn't seem like a hard guess.<br />
<br />
What is perhaps most fascinating is that he guessed that his sister is a lawyer and is currently in England. But then again, we don't have the objective transcript, and how could he have known that or if she's really a lawyer or something related to it, or maybe she is a law school dropout.]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[So about this so-called Epstein list]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-66500.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2025 21:21:34 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-66500.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[I am putting this here because I do think this warrants skepticism big time. At least without further context.<br />
<br />
But I want to be clear, since it's possible I haven't delved deeply enough into the relevant details, but why are we expecting there to be some damning client list that was owned by Epstein? Do we actually know such a list exists, or it's just people making dumb speculations?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[I am putting this here because I do think this warrants skepticism big time. At least without further context.<br />
<br />
But I want to be clear, since it's possible I haven't delved deeply enough into the relevant details, but why are we expecting there to be some damning client list that was owned by Epstein? Do we actually know such a list exists, or it's just people making dumb speculations?]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[Strange science 😦]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-66463.html</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2025 18:59:35 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-66463.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Bad medicine:<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite><span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">Orlando Bloom spends over &#36;10,000 on blood filtering procedure to remove microplastics from body</span><br />
<br />
<img src="https://i.postimg.cc/9zHCj9vy/Orl.jpg" alt="[Image: Orl.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<br />
The "Lord of the Rings" and "Pirates of the Caribbean" star posted a picture on his Instagram story from Clarify Clinics in London. The treatment, called Clari, involves a two-hour plasma exchange process where blood is drawn, separated into red blood cells and plasma, filtered, and returned to the body.<br />
<br />
Clinic representatives say the procedure can remove between 90% and 99% of microplastics, as well as other so-called "forever chemicals." Bloom praised the treatment for helping to clear his body of "toxic chemicals."<br />
<br />
The treatment itself is not without potential risks. Dr. Dan Baumgardt, a physician and senior lecturer at the University of Bristol, noted that any procedure involving blood filtration carries some chance of infection or other complications. At the same time, experts remain concerned that decades of widespread plastic use have significantly increased our exposure to microplastic particles.<br />
<br />
<a href="https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/articles/orlando-bloom-spends-over-10-004000668.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/arti...00668.html</a></blockquote>
<br />
It's hard to see how this will remove the microplastics from the body since microplastics are not just in the blood, and IV bags are made of plastic.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Bad medicine:<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite><span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">Orlando Bloom spends over &#36;10,000 on blood filtering procedure to remove microplastics from body</span><br />
<br />
<img src="https://i.postimg.cc/9zHCj9vy/Orl.jpg" alt="[Image: Orl.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<br />
The "Lord of the Rings" and "Pirates of the Caribbean" star posted a picture on his Instagram story from Clarify Clinics in London. The treatment, called Clari, involves a two-hour plasma exchange process where blood is drawn, separated into red blood cells and plasma, filtered, and returned to the body.<br />
<br />
Clinic representatives say the procedure can remove between 90% and 99% of microplastics, as well as other so-called "forever chemicals." Bloom praised the treatment for helping to clear his body of "toxic chemicals."<br />
<br />
The treatment itself is not without potential risks. Dr. Dan Baumgardt, a physician and senior lecturer at the University of Bristol, noted that any procedure involving blood filtration carries some chance of infection or other complications. At the same time, experts remain concerned that decades of widespread plastic use have significantly increased our exposure to microplastic particles.<br />
<br />
<a href="https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/articles/orlando-bloom-spends-over-10-004000668.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/arti...00668.html</a></blockquote>
<br />
It's hard to see how this will remove the microplastics from the body since microplastics are not just in the blood, and IV bags are made of plastic.]]></content:encoded>
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		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[She called a psychic to find out if another guy is a scammer]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-66218.html</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 05 Dec 2024 21:44:43 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-66218.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Some lady sent a scammer 200,000&#36; and I don't know what.<br />
<br />
@7:45 It says that she wants to know if her online boyfriend is a scammer, so she called a psychic.<br />
<br />
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od0DHjLyWDE" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od0DHjLyWDE</a><br />
<br />
That is pure comedy gold!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Some lady sent a scammer 200,000&#36; and I don't know what.<br />
<br />
@7:45 It says that she wants to know if her online boyfriend is a scammer, so she called a psychic.<br />
<br />
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od0DHjLyWDE" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od0DHjLyWDE</a><br />
<br />
That is pure comedy gold!]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[Exorcism?]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-66211.html</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 28 Nov 2024 02:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-66211.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">   There is a very famous psychiatrist / Self-help book writer called Scott Peck (1936-2005). He is famous for his book called “The Road Less Travelled” (1978) </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck</a></span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">   I was browsing through his book called “The People of The Lie: Toward a Psychology of Evil”. I would describe this book as a book that is very ahead of its time, brilliantly exploring the issue of antagonistic / narcissist / sociopathic personality disorders (as we call them today) that is paving the road for the psychologists of our time who now have fewer problem elaborating on these issues (simply because we now have greater reliable information on these personality disorders than back in 1983). </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">   So in his book, Scott peck is studying the issue of “evil”. Evil here is mainly (in our more modern way of thinking) the sum of early childhood issues that can lead someone to self-defeating behaviors or self-involved personality types that are harmful to others or society as a whole. This is a constant dilemma. The author who is a psychiatrist of the 70’s is constantly debating how classical theories are in many cases simply insufficient in understanding a deeper phenomenon that he describes as pure and simple evil (which is rejected by later psychologists who now use terms like “antagonistic behavior” or “NPD” with a whole range of descriptive terms for different types of “evil” people).</span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">    I know this has been a lengthy introduction but the most striking part of his book is the part on “Satanic Possessions”. This is also happening in the 70’s. The author who is a psychiatrists gets involved into some exorcism ceremonies and claims he has met the devil and has been changed and moved by this experience. He even gives some details and even refers to interesting resources on real exorcism.</span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">    So I wanted to open the debate and start by sharing my view on the issue (which is based on some amount of spiritual literature). In Islam the devil is described as an angel who has been appointed by God, maybe to unbalance the world a little bit with the full permission and awareness of God. In fact the monster-like Devil of the Judeo-Christian tradition is mostly based on the Zoroastrian concept of Ahriman, some sort of Anti-God which is the Opposite of the God Ahura-Mazda. (I’ve also found that these types of concepts tend to migrate a lot between seemingly opposite faiths). </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">   So from a spiritual perspective, the main issue is an issue of “Satan get thee behind me” issue. Most people I know will seek to improve their own awareness and try to establish a better relationship vis a vis their own small-self or Ego. </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">    Yet M. Scott Peck is also pointing to the fact that true psychotherapy can be a form of exorcism that brings up the lies within us to the light and thus frees us from erroneous ideas that are binding us and keeping us from living a happier / healthier life. Some modern writers are also saying that true spirituality and true psychotherapy are the same thing. So this is the part of his work that echoed into the 21st century.</span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">    But I’m still shocked, even somehow scared to see how even a 20th century can describe some Christian Exorcism Rituals as a real process dealing with real demonic forces with the author claiming that “He looked Satan in the Eyes” during those rituals. </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">    The only thing similar to that in spiritual literature is our “pain bodies” as described by Eckhart Tolle. These are lifeless / unconscious energies that emanate from humans that can be present in places like ancient prisons or mental institutions that can cause sensitive people to feel depressed, angry, fearful etc. And there are really techniques to dissolve these energy bodies or protect ourselves from their influence. </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">    Yet, anthropologically, people seem to like the idea of demons getting inside them. In some cultures it’s the Djinn. In other cultures they might ask us which insect it was that bit us. Personally (and as a spiritual person) I simply know that such people will simply get better within a week or so, after they start using the right type of medicine that has been prescribed by some mental health practitioner.   <img src="https://atheistforums.org/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" class="smilie smilie_81" /></span>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">   There is a very famous psychiatrist / Self-help book writer called Scott Peck (1936-2005). He is famous for his book called “The Road Less Travelled” (1978) </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck</a></span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">   I was browsing through his book called “The People of The Lie: Toward a Psychology of Evil”. I would describe this book as a book that is very ahead of its time, brilliantly exploring the issue of antagonistic / narcissist / sociopathic personality disorders (as we call them today) that is paving the road for the psychologists of our time who now have fewer problem elaborating on these issues (simply because we now have greater reliable information on these personality disorders than back in 1983). </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">   So in his book, Scott peck is studying the issue of “evil”. Evil here is mainly (in our more modern way of thinking) the sum of early childhood issues that can lead someone to self-defeating behaviors or self-involved personality types that are harmful to others or society as a whole. This is a constant dilemma. The author who is a psychiatrist of the 70’s is constantly debating how classical theories are in many cases simply insufficient in understanding a deeper phenomenon that he describes as pure and simple evil (which is rejected by later psychologists who now use terms like “antagonistic behavior” or “NPD” with a whole range of descriptive terms for different types of “evil” people).</span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">    I know this has been a lengthy introduction but the most striking part of his book is the part on “Satanic Possessions”. This is also happening in the 70’s. The author who is a psychiatrists gets involved into some exorcism ceremonies and claims he has met the devil and has been changed and moved by this experience. He even gives some details and even refers to interesting resources on real exorcism.</span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">    So I wanted to open the debate and start by sharing my view on the issue (which is based on some amount of spiritual literature). In Islam the devil is described as an angel who has been appointed by God, maybe to unbalance the world a little bit with the full permission and awareness of God. In fact the monster-like Devil of the Judeo-Christian tradition is mostly based on the Zoroastrian concept of Ahriman, some sort of Anti-God which is the Opposite of the God Ahura-Mazda. (I’ve also found that these types of concepts tend to migrate a lot between seemingly opposite faiths). </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">   So from a spiritual perspective, the main issue is an issue of “Satan get thee behind me” issue. Most people I know will seek to improve their own awareness and try to establish a better relationship vis a vis their own small-self or Ego. </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">    Yet M. Scott Peck is also pointing to the fact that true psychotherapy can be a form of exorcism that brings up the lies within us to the light and thus frees us from erroneous ideas that are binding us and keeping us from living a happier / healthier life. Some modern writers are also saying that true spirituality and true psychotherapy are the same thing. So this is the part of his work that echoed into the 21st century.</span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">    But I’m still shocked, even somehow scared to see how even a 20th century can describe some Christian Exorcism Rituals as a real process dealing with real demonic forces with the author claiming that “He looked Satan in the Eyes” during those rituals. </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">    The only thing similar to that in spiritual literature is our “pain bodies” as described by Eckhart Tolle. These are lifeless / unconscious energies that emanate from humans that can be present in places like ancient prisons or mental institutions that can cause sensitive people to feel depressed, angry, fearful etc. And there are really techniques to dissolve these energy bodies or protect ourselves from their influence. </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">    Yet, anthropologically, people seem to like the idea of demons getting inside them. In some cultures it’s the Djinn. In other cultures they might ask us which insect it was that bit us. Personally (and as a spiritual person) I simply know that such people will simply get better within a week or so, after they start using the right type of medicine that has been prescribed by some mental health practitioner.   <img src="https://atheistforums.org/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" class="smilie smilie_81" /></span>]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[flat earhers]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65936.html</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 08 May 2024 02:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65936.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[hi peeps its been a long time since ive converse with fellow free thinkers . i used to be a a WWGHA member 20 years ago . i came here seeking knowledge about how to ... kill off the flattard phenomena. thats been infesting everywhere.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[hi peeps its been a long time since ive converse with fellow free thinkers . i used to be a a WWGHA member 20 years ago . i came here seeking knowledge about how to ... kill off the flattard phenomena. thats been infesting everywhere.]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[I'm happy for you! Is that even possible?]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65809.html</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2024 07:11:44 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65809.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[In the context of others succeeding while you either stand still or regress is it possible for us to genuinely feel warm and fuzzy about another's good news? <br />
<br />
Are we fighting electro-chemical processes that drive us to compete? Are we really fighting them at all? Is it all part of the programing (evolutionary) to make us get along?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[In the context of others succeeding while you either stand still or regress is it possible for us to genuinely feel warm and fuzzy about another's good news? <br />
<br />
Are we fighting electro-chemical processes that drive us to compete? Are we really fighting them at all? Is it all part of the programing (evolutionary) to make us get along?]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Ghost stories]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65568.html</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65568.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Well, it's that spooky month yet upon us. Surprisingly, while reading Patrick Stewart's new autobiography, I came upon a ghost story about his haunted house in LA that prompted me to open this topic. I mean, <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">do other people have ghost stories?</span><br />
<br />
Stewart's story was that he came back home one evening and could smell something roasting in the kitchen. Yet the stove was not even turned on, and the oven was cold and empty.<br />
<br />
Then his son was alone one evening and the books suddenly flew across the room, as if thrown with great force. The incident scared him so badly that he left the house and returned only when he knew Patrick would soon be home. He would never again spend a night in the house alone.<br />
<br />
Stewart also heard noises: the sound of voices coming from an empty room; and the sound of footsteps on the stairs when nobody was using them.<br />
<br />
This prompted him to move away and rent the house and then the new tenants, a family, who then called him and described experiences similar to his. Their daughter even saw a shadowy male figure standing in the hall, just at the foot of the stairs.<br />
<br />
But the house got exorcised one night as the mom of the family was trying to take a nap: she got so sick of the disembodied voices and footfalls on the stairs that she screamed, "Whoever you are, fuck off and leave us in peace!" The disturbances stopped at that very moment and were gone forever.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Well, it's that spooky month yet upon us. Surprisingly, while reading Patrick Stewart's new autobiography, I came upon a ghost story about his haunted house in LA that prompted me to open this topic. I mean, <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">do other people have ghost stories?</span><br />
<br />
Stewart's story was that he came back home one evening and could smell something roasting in the kitchen. Yet the stove was not even turned on, and the oven was cold and empty.<br />
<br />
Then his son was alone one evening and the books suddenly flew across the room, as if thrown with great force. The incident scared him so badly that he left the house and returned only when he knew Patrick would soon be home. He would never again spend a night in the house alone.<br />
<br />
Stewart also heard noises: the sound of voices coming from an empty room; and the sound of footsteps on the stairs when nobody was using them.<br />
<br />
This prompted him to move away and rent the house and then the new tenants, a family, who then called him and described experiences similar to his. Their daughter even saw a shadowy male figure standing in the hall, just at the foot of the stairs.<br />
<br />
But the house got exorcised one night as the mom of the family was trying to take a nap: she got so sick of the disembodied voices and footfalls on the stairs that she screamed, "Whoever you are, fuck off and leave us in peace!" The disturbances stopped at that very moment and were gone forever.]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[CNN reports on Iran attacking the United States with Hurricane Sandy in 2012.]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65510.html</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 02 Oct 2023 13:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65510.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[CNN and Washington Post report on Iran attacking the United States with Hurricane Sandy in 2012.<br />
<br />
<br />
<a href="https://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/31/world/meast/syria-sandy-facebook-claim/index.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/31/world...index.html</a><br />
<br />
&amp;<br />
<br />
<a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2012/10/30/pro-assad-page-claims-syria-and-iran-engineered-hurricane-sandy/" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worl...ane-sandy/</a><br />
<br />
<br />
“Sources confirmed to us that Hurricane Sandy that is slamming the U.S. was set off by highly advanced technologies developed by the heroic Iranian regime that supports the resistance, with coordination of our resistive Syrian regime,” pro-government group News Network of the Syrian Armed Forces said in a Facebook posting.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[CNN and Washington Post report on Iran attacking the United States with Hurricane Sandy in 2012.<br />
<br />
<br />
<a href="https://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/31/world/meast/syria-sandy-facebook-claim/index.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/31/world...index.html</a><br />
<br />
&amp;<br />
<br />
<a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2012/10/30/pro-assad-page-claims-syria-and-iran-engineered-hurricane-sandy/" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worl...ane-sandy/</a><br />
<br />
<br />
“Sources confirmed to us that Hurricane Sandy that is slamming the U.S. was set off by highly advanced technologies developed by the heroic Iranian regime that supports the resistance, with coordination of our resistive Syrian regime,” pro-government group News Network of the Syrian Armed Forces said in a Facebook posting.]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[CNN reports on Iran attacking the United States with Hurricane Sandy in 2012.]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65509.html</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 02 Oct 2023 13:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65509.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[CNN and Washington Post both report on Iran attacking the United States with Hurricane Sandy in 2012.<br />
<br />
<div class="modnotice admin"><strong>Administrator Notice</strong><br />Links removed per 30/30 rule.  After you have been here 30 days and made 30 posts, you may posts links. </div>
<br />
<br />
<br />
"Sources confirmed to us that Hurricane Sandy that is slamming the U.S. was set off by highly advanced technologies developed by the heroic Iranian regime that supports the resistance, with coordination of our resistive Syrian regime," pro-government group News Network of the Syrian Armed Forces said in a Facebook posting.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[CNN and Washington Post both report on Iran attacking the United States with Hurricane Sandy in 2012.<br />
<br />
<div class="modnotice admin"><strong>Administrator Notice</strong><br />Links removed per 30/30 rule.  After you have been here 30 days and made 30 posts, you may posts links. </div>
<br />
<br />
<br />
"Sources confirmed to us that Hurricane Sandy that is slamming the U.S. was set off by highly advanced technologies developed by the heroic Iranian regime that supports the resistance, with coordination of our resistive Syrian regime," pro-government group News Network of the Syrian Armed Forces said in a Facebook posting.]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Do you Believe in Reincarnation?]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65454.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 17 Sep 2023 17:24:07 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65454.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">   This mosaic is from the Church of San Vitale in Ravenna Italy that was built by General Belisarius of the East Roman Empire (Died in 565 AD), the Emperor Justinian who built the Church of Hagia Sophia in Byzantium in the year in 537 AD and inaugurated it with his General Belisarius. And Bellow is the picture of the Empress Theodora (died in 548 AD in Today’s Constantinople). </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">   Now look at these pictures carefully and tell me if you believe in reincarnation or not:</span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"><img src="https://www.shorthistory.org/images/BelisariusJustinian-fresco-Ravenna.jpg" alt="[Image: BelisariusJustinian-fresco-Ravenna.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"><img src="https://e3.365dm.com/23/07/1600x900/skynews-putin-erdogan-vladimir_6212058.jpg?20230708031940" alt="[Image: skynews-putin-erdogan-vladimir_6212058.j...0708031940]" class="mycode_img" /></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">And Here is Emperess Theodora who might have chosen a made body in this lifetime:</span><br />
<br />
<br />
<img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Theodora_mosaic_-_Basilica_San_Vitale_%28Ravenna%29_v2.jpg" alt="[Image: Theodora_mosaic_-_Basilica_San_Vitale_%2...%29_v2.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<br />
<img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/2022_Ebrahim_Raisi.jpg/800px-2022_Ebrahim_Raisi.jpg" alt="[Image: 800px-2022_Ebrahim_Raisi.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<br />
<br />
And This is Atilla the Hun (Dİed 435 AD):<br />
<br />
<img src="https://malevus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Attila-the-Hun.jpg" alt="[Image: Attila-the-Hun.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<br />
<img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Xi_Jinping_March_2017.jpg" alt="[Image: Xi_Jinping_March_2017.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">My faith is that the soul is able to travel from one body to the other, through time and space, without any of the restrictions we are facing in the physical world. <img src="https://atheistforums.org/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" class="smilie smilie_81" /></span>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">   This mosaic is from the Church of San Vitale in Ravenna Italy that was built by General Belisarius of the East Roman Empire (Died in 565 AD), the Emperor Justinian who built the Church of Hagia Sophia in Byzantium in the year in 537 AD and inaugurated it with his General Belisarius. And Bellow is the picture of the Empress Theodora (died in 548 AD in Today’s Constantinople). </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"> </span><br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">   Now look at these pictures carefully and tell me if you believe in reincarnation or not:</span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"><img src="https://www.shorthistory.org/images/BelisariusJustinian-fresco-Ravenna.jpg" alt="[Image: BelisariusJustinian-fresco-Ravenna.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size"><img src="https://e3.365dm.com/23/07/1600x900/skynews-putin-erdogan-vladimir_6212058.jpg?20230708031940" alt="[Image: skynews-putin-erdogan-vladimir_6212058.j...0708031940]" class="mycode_img" /></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">And Here is Emperess Theodora who might have chosen a made body in this lifetime:</span><br />
<br />
<br />
<img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Theodora_mosaic_-_Basilica_San_Vitale_%28Ravenna%29_v2.jpg" alt="[Image: Theodora_mosaic_-_Basilica_San_Vitale_%2...%29_v2.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<br />
<img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/2022_Ebrahim_Raisi.jpg/800px-2022_Ebrahim_Raisi.jpg" alt="[Image: 800px-2022_Ebrahim_Raisi.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<br />
<br />
And This is Atilla the Hun (Dİed 435 AD):<br />
<br />
<img src="https://malevus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Attila-the-Hun.jpg" alt="[Image: Attila-the-Hun.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<br />
<img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Xi_Jinping_March_2017.jpg" alt="[Image: Xi_Jinping_March_2017.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">My faith is that the soul is able to travel from one body to the other, through time and space, without any of the restrictions we are facing in the physical world. <img src="https://atheistforums.org/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" class="smilie smilie_81" /></span>]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Infinite regress and debunking karma]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65407.html</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 06 Sep 2023 15:23:49 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65407.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[According to the theory of Karma, all suffering is caused by your own misdeeds (any acts causing suffering to others) in a past life or this life.<br />
<br />
Let's call the first being to ever suffer Bob.<br />
<br />
According to the theory of Karma, Bob must have done something in a past life or this life which caused someone else to suffer.<br />
<br />
This means that someone else suffered before Bob ever suffered, which contradicts our assumption that Bob was the first being to ever suffer. <br />
<br />
We started with two premises (Karma is real, there was a being who was the first to ever suffer) and arrived at a contradiction, which means that one of the premises must be false. <br />
<br />
I can't see a reason not to assume that there was indeed a first being to ever suffer, so therefore the premise which must be discarded is the premise that karma is real.<br />
<br />
By a proof by contradiction I've shown that the theory of karma must be incorrect.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[According to the theory of Karma, all suffering is caused by your own misdeeds (any acts causing suffering to others) in a past life or this life.<br />
<br />
Let's call the first being to ever suffer Bob.<br />
<br />
According to the theory of Karma, Bob must have done something in a past life or this life which caused someone else to suffer.<br />
<br />
This means that someone else suffered before Bob ever suffered, which contradicts our assumption that Bob was the first being to ever suffer. <br />
<br />
We started with two premises (Karma is real, there was a being who was the first to ever suffer) and arrived at a contradiction, which means that one of the premises must be false. <br />
<br />
I can't see a reason not to assume that there was indeed a first being to ever suffer, so therefore the premise which must be discarded is the premise that karma is real.<br />
<br />
By a proof by contradiction I've shown that the theory of karma must be incorrect.]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Placebo Magick]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65292.html</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 15 Aug 2023 14:37:15 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65292.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[I've dabbled with placebo magick in the past, and found it a little fun.<br />
Anyone else played with make-believe magick?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[I've dabbled with placebo magick in the past, and found it a little fun.<br />
Anyone else played with make-believe magick?]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Is it cringy to point out that astrology is fake?]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65255.html</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 07 Aug 2023 07:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65255.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[I really want to know what this meme trying to convey. I interpret the thumbs-up as a way of saying "Wow, cool, good for you pal"<br />
<img src="https://scontent-atl3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/362278387_787083479988611_1406487266014442122_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&amp;ccb=1-7&amp;_nc_sid=dbeb18&amp;_nc_ohc=940fRN13RgUAX8fUWqo&amp;_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-2.xx&amp;oh=00_AfDJ6sLHFqxe1Mda9f3gtu7VYiatBgdZF_u_fo00D6ZMZw&amp;oe=64D585B6" alt="[Image: 362278387_787083479988611_14064872660144...e=64D585B6]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<br />
Why are the astrology enthusiasts being so condescending towards the skeptic?<br />
<br />
I've seen a lot of people agree with the sentiment that bringing up astrology on a first date is a good litmus test for assessing how closed-minded and judgmental a person is.<br />
<br />
Why should anyone be open-minded about astrology? Why humor something that you know is untrue?<br />
<br />
Why do astrology enthusiasts hold people to such a high standard of open-mindedness?<br />
<br />
I'm not looking for a circle-jerk where we all just go "well, who cares what an astrology enthusiast has to say about anything"<br />
<br />
I also want to understand why so many people seemed to have loved this tweet:<br />
<img src="https://preview.redd.it/what-a-take-v0-7zxj2eigpw5a1.png?auto=webp&amp;s=877b43db1bdc1799801a5752eea4148d26c46089" alt="[Image: what-a-take-v0-7zxj2eigpw5a1.png?auto=we...8d26c46089]" class="mycode_img" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[I really want to know what this meme trying to convey. I interpret the thumbs-up as a way of saying "Wow, cool, good for you pal"<br />
<img src="https://scontent-atl3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/362278387_787083479988611_1406487266014442122_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&amp;ccb=1-7&amp;_nc_sid=dbeb18&amp;_nc_ohc=940fRN13RgUAX8fUWqo&amp;_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-2.xx&amp;oh=00_AfDJ6sLHFqxe1Mda9f3gtu7VYiatBgdZF_u_fo00D6ZMZw&amp;oe=64D585B6" alt="[Image: 362278387_787083479988611_14064872660144...e=64D585B6]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<br />
Why are the astrology enthusiasts being so condescending towards the skeptic?<br />
<br />
I've seen a lot of people agree with the sentiment that bringing up astrology on a first date is a good litmus test for assessing how closed-minded and judgmental a person is.<br />
<br />
Why should anyone be open-minded about astrology? Why humor something that you know is untrue?<br />
<br />
Why do astrology enthusiasts hold people to such a high standard of open-mindedness?<br />
<br />
I'm not looking for a circle-jerk where we all just go "well, who cares what an astrology enthusiast has to say about anything"<br />
<br />
I also want to understand why so many people seemed to have loved this tweet:<br />
<img src="https://preview.redd.it/what-a-take-v0-7zxj2eigpw5a1.png?auto=webp&amp;s=877b43db1bdc1799801a5752eea4148d26c46089" alt="[Image: what-a-take-v0-7zxj2eigpw5a1.png?auto=we...8d26c46089]" class="mycode_img" />]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Plausibility of ancient extraterrestrials]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65163.html</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2023 01:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65163.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[The very same "gods" were described across multiple cultures all over the planet. You can find endless examples of gods that went by one name in one culture and by another name (in some cases an extremely similar name) in another culture.<br />
I'm open to the idea that these beings helped advance human civilization.<br />
Historical evidence suggests that multiple ancient cultures had advanced scientific knowledge rivaling (and in many cases exceeding) our modern scientific knowledge. I'm open to the idea that this was all thanks to these beings.<br />
I'm open to the idea that these beings have been on our planet for thousands of years and have been documented by ancient cultures for as long as they've had a writing system.<br />
<br />
I want to know what you guys think about the degree to which we can draw conclusions from the available historical records. I also want to know if it can be said that the historical evidence points to Hindu Atheism being a rational position to take.<br />
<br />
<br />
The enormous collection of Vedic texts taken to be historical (as opposed to the purely mythological ones) seem to do a great job of telling the stories of these beings. These texts also do a great job of making highly quantitatively specific scientific claims that have been shown to be miraculously correct in modern times. <br />
<br />
Isn't there a vanishingly small probability of getting those measurements correct to such a fine level of precision by merely guessing?<br />
<br />
Also, who prompted them to even make such guesses? <br />
<br />
Why were ancient people even talking about their home as a planet (by the way, Hindu scriptures correctly described Earth as a sphere) and talking about how old the planet is?<br />
<br />
The flying machines that Hindu deities were said to have had are what really gets me. Sounds just like the UAPs we're seeing in recent years. The machines were described as being able to move in any direction while still facing in the same direction, like a helicopter. This is exactly like the UAPs that get described nowadays]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[The very same "gods" were described across multiple cultures all over the planet. You can find endless examples of gods that went by one name in one culture and by another name (in some cases an extremely similar name) in another culture.<br />
I'm open to the idea that these beings helped advance human civilization.<br />
Historical evidence suggests that multiple ancient cultures had advanced scientific knowledge rivaling (and in many cases exceeding) our modern scientific knowledge. I'm open to the idea that this was all thanks to these beings.<br />
I'm open to the idea that these beings have been on our planet for thousands of years and have been documented by ancient cultures for as long as they've had a writing system.<br />
<br />
I want to know what you guys think about the degree to which we can draw conclusions from the available historical records. I also want to know if it can be said that the historical evidence points to Hindu Atheism being a rational position to take.<br />
<br />
<br />
The enormous collection of Vedic texts taken to be historical (as opposed to the purely mythological ones) seem to do a great job of telling the stories of these beings. These texts also do a great job of making highly quantitatively specific scientific claims that have been shown to be miraculously correct in modern times. <br />
<br />
Isn't there a vanishingly small probability of getting those measurements correct to such a fine level of precision by merely guessing?<br />
<br />
Also, who prompted them to even make such guesses? <br />
<br />
Why were ancient people even talking about their home as a planet (by the way, Hindu scriptures correctly described Earth as a sphere) and talking about how old the planet is?<br />
<br />
The flying machines that Hindu deities were said to have had are what really gets me. Sounds just like the UAPs we're seeing in recent years. The machines were described as being able to move in any direction while still facing in the same direction, like a helicopter. This is exactly like the UAPs that get described nowadays]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Claim of the Ark being found]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65112.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jun 2023 23:34:06 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65112.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[They're claiming it's the same size in cubits. Now  personally an atheist but this gets me thinking. How could the rock formation as geologist call it be the exact same size as the ark?<br />
<br />
<br />
<div class="modnotice admin"><strong>Administrator Notice</strong><br />Link removed due to 30/30 violation.</div>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[They're claiming it's the same size in cubits. Now  personally an atheist but this gets me thinking. How could the rock formation as geologist call it be the exact same size as the ark?<br />
<br />
<br />
<div class="modnotice admin"><strong>Administrator Notice</strong><br />Link removed due to 30/30 violation.</div>]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Refuting the Flat-Earth theory]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-64909.html</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2023 15:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-64909.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[I am thinking about making a YouTube video refuting the Flat Earth Theory, as a former Flat-Earther. Here are the arguments I am planning to use:<br />
<br />
1) The dip of the horizon. Flat-Earthers often claim that the horizon is always at your eye-level, like here:<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite><a href="https://theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Basic+Perspective" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tik...erspective</a> Wrote:</cite>A fact of basic perspective is that the line of the horizon is always at eye level with the observer.</blockquote>But that is demonstrably not the case. You can observe that in two ways:<br />
a) You can see the sunset twice if you watch the sunset sitting down and then quickly stand up (the sun stays at your eye level, but the horizon imperceptibly falls).<br />
b) You can measure it directly from an airplane using a device with a camera and a gyroscope (like almost all modern mobile phones):<br />
<img src="https://flatearth.ws/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/horizon-dip.jpg" alt="[Image: horizon-dip.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
The formula for the dip of the horizon is easily derived from the Round Earth Theory, as anybody who knows high-school mathematics can confirm:<br />
<img src="https://flatassembler.github.io/Diagram.png" alt="[Image: Diagram.png]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<img src="https://flatassembler.github.io/formula.png" alt="[Image: formula.png]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
And here we see how is the Round Earth Theory superior to the Flat Earth Theory: it makes such simple and testable predictions. It seems to me that you can never derive an exact formula for anything from the Flat Earth Theory.<br />
<br />
2) Why does the gravitational acceleration (9.8m/s2) decrease measurably when you climb up on a mountain? And how is your answer compatible with the rest of the Flat Earth Theory? You don't get to both claim gravity doesn't exist (and that that's why gravity doesn't cause the Flat Earth to collapse under its own weight) and that stars have a gravitational field.<br />
<br />
3) If GPS is land-based, how come are GPS devices capable of telling your location, including your elevation, with just three signals? The simple truth is, when you know distance from three points, you can calculate two points where you might be. Those points will be different, mostly in elevation. If GPS devices receive signals from satellites, they can eliminate the point that's above the satellites as impossible. If they receive signals from land-based emitters, they cannot do that.<br />
<br />
4) Polar day and polar night on Antarctica. If time zones work the way you claim they do, they would be impossible.<br />
<br />
5) A bit of a soft question: Can you point me to any scientific discovery that was made using anything resembling your methods, by making countless ad-hoc hypotheses and asserting massive conspiracies? Yes, science has been wrong before, but scientists were almost always simply mistaken, not lying. Especially not massively colluding with each other.<br />
<br />
Do you think that I should change something or add something?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[I am thinking about making a YouTube video refuting the Flat Earth Theory, as a former Flat-Earther. Here are the arguments I am planning to use:<br />
<br />
1) The dip of the horizon. Flat-Earthers often claim that the horizon is always at your eye-level, like here:<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite><a href="https://theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Basic+Perspective" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tik...erspective</a> Wrote:</cite>A fact of basic perspective is that the line of the horizon is always at eye level with the observer.</blockquote>But that is demonstrably not the case. You can observe that in two ways:<br />
a) You can see the sunset twice if you watch the sunset sitting down and then quickly stand up (the sun stays at your eye level, but the horizon imperceptibly falls).<br />
b) You can measure it directly from an airplane using a device with a camera and a gyroscope (like almost all modern mobile phones):<br />
<img src="https://flatearth.ws/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/horizon-dip.jpg" alt="[Image: horizon-dip.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
The formula for the dip of the horizon is easily derived from the Round Earth Theory, as anybody who knows high-school mathematics can confirm:<br />
<img src="https://flatassembler.github.io/Diagram.png" alt="[Image: Diagram.png]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<img src="https://flatassembler.github.io/formula.png" alt="[Image: formula.png]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
And here we see how is the Round Earth Theory superior to the Flat Earth Theory: it makes such simple and testable predictions. It seems to me that you can never derive an exact formula for anything from the Flat Earth Theory.<br />
<br />
2) Why does the gravitational acceleration (9.8m/s2) decrease measurably when you climb up on a mountain? And how is your answer compatible with the rest of the Flat Earth Theory? You don't get to both claim gravity doesn't exist (and that that's why gravity doesn't cause the Flat Earth to collapse under its own weight) and that stars have a gravitational field.<br />
<br />
3) If GPS is land-based, how come are GPS devices capable of telling your location, including your elevation, with just three signals? The simple truth is, when you know distance from three points, you can calculate two points where you might be. Those points will be different, mostly in elevation. If GPS devices receive signals from satellites, they can eliminate the point that's above the satellites as impossible. If they receive signals from land-based emitters, they cannot do that.<br />
<br />
4) Polar day and polar night on Antarctica. If time zones work the way you claim they do, they would be impossible.<br />
<br />
5) A bit of a soft question: Can you point me to any scientific discovery that was made using anything resembling your methods, by making countless ad-hoc hypotheses and asserting massive conspiracies? Yes, science has been wrong before, but scientists were almost always simply mistaken, not lying. Especially not massively colluding with each other.<br />
<br />
Do you think that I should change something or add something?]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[How real is Hypnotism?]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-64643.html</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 23 Nov 2022 20:00:05 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-64643.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[I am not susceptible to hypnotism.  I understand that 10 percent of the population is very suggestible. I see people go up on stage with a hypnotist and go under fast and show out of character behavior.    Research supports efficacy with smoking cessation.    What is it all about?  Anyone have good experience with it?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[I am not susceptible to hypnotism.  I understand that 10 percent of the population is very suggestible. I see people go up on stage with a hypnotist and go under fast and show out of character behavior.    Research supports efficacy with smoking cessation.    What is it all about?  Anyone have good experience with it?]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Onward Christian Soldiers]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-64587.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2022 15:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-64587.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[1. ALTAR CALL is the procedure by which personnel are designated for extraction by RAPTURE <br />
<br />
2. JESUIT agents have infiltrated most congregations of designated personnel <br />
<br />
3. MARK OF THE BEAST is the RFID chip required on all products sold by the WHORE OF BABYLON <br />
<br />
4. MARYOLATRY is the ROMANIST practice of worshiping the mother of Jesus <br />
<br />
5. MILLENNIUM is the one-thousand year period of total pacification by designated personnel planned for the Earth <br />
<br />
6. RAPTURE is the rapid evacuation of designated personnel prior to the TRIBULATION <br />
<br />
7. ROMANISM is the heretical theology of the WHORE OF BABYLON <br />
<br />
8. SOLA SCRIPTURA is the principle of disseminating future operations to designated personnel by written orders <br />
<br />
9. TRIBULATION is a seven year period of hostilities planned to subdue the Earth following the RAPTURE<br />
<br />
10. WHORE OF BABYLON is the One World Church described in Revelation as a woman who rides a beast]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[1. ALTAR CALL is the procedure by which personnel are designated for extraction by RAPTURE <br />
<br />
2. JESUIT agents have infiltrated most congregations of designated personnel <br />
<br />
3. MARK OF THE BEAST is the RFID chip required on all products sold by the WHORE OF BABYLON <br />
<br />
4. MARYOLATRY is the ROMANIST practice of worshiping the mother of Jesus <br />
<br />
5. MILLENNIUM is the one-thousand year period of total pacification by designated personnel planned for the Earth <br />
<br />
6. RAPTURE is the rapid evacuation of designated personnel prior to the TRIBULATION <br />
<br />
7. ROMANISM is the heretical theology of the WHORE OF BABYLON <br />
<br />
8. SOLA SCRIPTURA is the principle of disseminating future operations to designated personnel by written orders <br />
<br />
9. TRIBULATION is a seven year period of hostilities planned to subdue the Earth following the RAPTURE<br />
<br />
10. WHORE OF BABYLON is the One World Church described in Revelation as a woman who rides a beast]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[How 9/11 shaped the Misinformation Industry]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-64467.html</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2022 01:05:22 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-64467.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">How the 9/11 attacks helped shape the modern misinformation, conspiracy theory industry</span><br />
<a href="https://www.politifact.com/article/2021/sep/09/how-911-attacks-helped-shape-modern-misinformation/" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Politi Fact</a><br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>IF YOUR TIME IS SHORT<br />
<br />
The sudden terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, seemed to defy explanation and occurred just as the internet started to boom. That combination spawned various conspiracy theories and made them accessible in new ways.<br />
<br />
The attacks also fueled distrust in government and fears of real and perceived enemies. Experts said the feeling of lost trust and security likely made some Americans more susceptible to conspiracy theories about 9/11 and other topics.<br />
<br />
One key accelerator of the 9/11 truth movement was an amateur documentary released online in 2005, which created a template for future videos, such as “Plandemic.”<br />
<br />
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    <div class="spoiler" style="display: none;"><hr>Outside the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, a New Jersey man held up his hand for a camera as he told a local TV reporter about the chaotic scene he’d just witnessed inside the building. <br />
<br />
His palm was smeared with blood — blood that belonged to Ashli Babbitt, the woman fatally shot by law enforcement as she tried to force her way further into the Capitol. "It could have been me, but she went in first," Thomas Baranyi, 29, said in the interview.<br />
<br />
Baranyi said he entered the Capitol to tell Congress that "we need some kind of investigation into this," suggesting that, like many of the rioters who tore through the building, he believed the false narrative that the election was stolen from former President Donald Trump. <br />
<br />
It wouldn’t have been Baranyi’s first time falling for false information. Ten years earlier, he had latched onto another bogus conspiracy theory, according to a childhood friend who spoke to Insider: He had come to believe that the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, were staged and part of a false-flag operation.<br />
<br />
Scholars who study conspiracy theories say that kind of throughline is familiar. "People who believe in one conspiracy theory are more likely to believe in others," said Karen Douglas, a professor of social psychology at the University of Kent in the United Kingdom.<br />
<br />
But with his 9/11 views, Baranyi is not alone. Twenty years after the attacks shocked the world and left thousands dead, various conspiracy theories questioning the official narrative continue to captivate some Americans.<br />
<br />
The attacks and their aftermath also helped reshape, and in some ways turbocharge, the misinformation and conspiracy theory industry — encouraging people to turn to the internet for answers; demonstrating the power of "Plandemic"-style videos; fueling distrust of powerful institutions like the FBI, the intelligence community and the mainstream media; stoking fears of real and perceived enemies, including immigrants, Muslims and the surveillance state; and heightening a feeling of lost control, everywhere from airports to ballgames.<br />
<br />
"It is a watershed, a landmark … in the history of conspiracy theories," said Kathryn Olmsted, a professor of history at the University of California, Davis, and the author of a book on conspiracy theories from World War II to 9/11. "You see an acceleration of previous trends, if not a whole new age of conspiracy theories, after 9/11."<br />
<br />
The post-9/11 world saw the rise of conspiracy theories claiming that President Barack Obama wasn’t born in the U.S., that he was a Muslim born in Kenya and schooled in a madrassa; that the Sandy Hook school massacre and other mass shootings didn’t happen; that a child sex trafficking ring tied to Hillary Clinton was operating out of a pizza shop; that Trump was waging a secret war against an elite group of pedophiles; that the coronavirus pandemic was a hoax and the COVID-19 vaccines carried microchips; and that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump.<br />
<br />
It was more than coincidence that such beliefs thrived post-9/11. In several ways, 9/11 planted the seeds for today’s thicket of misinformation, according to experts who study the history, politics and psychology behind conspiracy theories. <br />
<br />
'A world-changing event': Searching for explanations in times of crisis<br />
A conspiracy theory is an attempt to explain an event with claims that small groups of sinister or powerful people are working in secret, usually against the common good. <br />
<br />
"It’s a theory because you can’t necessarily prove it, and it’s a conspiracy because there’s another explanation for how things are occurring," said Mark Fenster, a professor of law at the University of Florida and author of a book on American conspiracy theories.<br />
<br />
People gravitate to conspiracy theories for several reasons, including their need to know the truth and feel safe, said Douglas, who studies the psychology of conspiracy theories. A loss of trust in established institutions makes people more inclined to accept misinformation and conspiracy theories — especially about crises that seem inexplicable.<br />
<br />
Conspiracy theories did not originate with the Sept. 11 attacks, of course. They have surrounded sudden crises throughout history, such as the attack on Pearl Harbor that dragged the U.S. into World War II. A few weeks after John F. Kennedy’s assassination — and the point-blank killing of his suspected assassin — about 50% of Americans believed it was the work of a conspiracy rather than a lone gunman, said Joseph Uscinski, a professor of political science at the University of Miami and author on conspiracy theories. By the mid-1970s, that belief had taken hold among 80% of Americans.<br />
<br />
"The JFK assassination conspiracy theories were very popular in the 1970s," Olmsted said. But to really engage with and investigate them, "you had to go to conferences, you had to join a group where they would physically meet." Some people even traveled to Dallas.<br />
<br />
The theories born out of Sept. 11 were different, because they were the first to spread in the internet age, Olmsted said. That made them easier to share for conspiracy theorists, who once had to pester people with flyers to disseminate information about their worldviews.<br />
<br />
Firefighters work near the site of the World Trade Center after the terrorist attack on Sept. 11, 2001. (AP)<br />
<br />
"9/11 really was the real hinge point between conspiracy theories being a fringe message board and talk-radio phenomenon, and a mainstream issue that we're still dealing with today," said Mike Rothschild, the author of a book on the baseless QAnon conspiracy theory. <br />
<br />
He added: "9/11 was a massive, world-changing event that seemed to defy explanation — a petri dish for conspiracy theories. And it happened at the same time as the internet was becoming a commonplace and everyday method of communication."<br />
<br />
The 9/11 conspiracy theories, some of which live on with groups such as Architects &amp; Engineers for 9/11 Truth, were wide-ranging. They said that al-Qaida wasn’t responsible; that the military and intelligence community stood down; that it was an inside job; that the buildings collapsed from a controlled demolition; that jet fuel doesn’t melt steel beams; that no Jewish people died; that no plane hit the Pentagon; and that there were no planes at all, just holograms.<br />
<br />
Broadly speaking, the theories fell into two categories, Fenster said. There were those that said people in power "let it happen," and those that said they "made it happen on purpose."<br />
<br />
The earliest fringe claims suggesting the attacks weren’t what they seemed popped up almost immediately after the planes struck the twin towers. More elaborate theories soon circulated in Europe before seeping into the U.S. mainstream. Just two months after the attacks, President George W. Bush urged the United Nations to "never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories."<br />
<br />
Yet by the mid-2000s, such theories were entrenched enough that the State Department devoted a webpage to addressing them. The 9/11 Commission’s final report took them on in 2004, and a year later, the magazine Popular Mechanics published a special issue debunking them. The theories drew interest from Hollywood celebrities. In 2012, actors Martin Sheen and Woody Harrelson were planning on making a film about them, according to the Guardian, although their project never made it to the big screen.<br />
<br />
"It is extremely difficult to dislodge or anticipate conspiracy theories once they start," Jamie Gorelick, a member of the 9/11 Commission, told the Wall Street Journal in 2020.<br />
<br />
‘Do your own research’: Setting a blueprint for the digital age<br />
There’s no evidence that higher percentages of people believe in conspiracy theories today than before the Sept. 11 attacks, said Uscinski, who has conducted polling on conspiracy theories for years. Other experts who spoke to PolitiFact agreed that the raw numbers haven’t spiked. <br />
<br />
And yet, the experts agreed, it certainly feels like the grip of conspiracy theories on Americans is worse than it has ever been, with political leaders and influential media figures indulging them widely and news organizations like PolitiFact covering them closely. <br />
<br />
The Jan. 6 insurrection was fueled by beliefs that the election was stolen. And prominent public figures like Republican Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, who has supported QAnon and many other conspiracy theories, including about Sept. 11, have drawn elevated attention to them.<br />
<br />
Jacob Anthony Chansley, 34, of Arizona, known as the "QAnon Shaman," attends the rally in support of former President Donald Trump before storming the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington. (AP)<br />
<br />
The internet and social media seem to have brought conspiracy theories out of the shadows, making them feel more visible and prevalent, if not more credible. And 9/11 truthers refined the blueprint for how to harness those technologies.<br />
<br />
"For people who are already inclined toward conspiracy theories, it is easier now to find them and become embedded in conspiracy communities more quickly," Douglas said. "Conspiracy theories have always been with us and people have always believed them. However, the means of finding and sharing conspiracy theories has certainly changed."<br />
<br />
In the years since Sept. 11, online misinformers associated with QAnon, COVID-19 anti-vaccine activism and other recent movements have used social media platforms such as Facebook to propagate information, communicate in groups, and make a quick buck. One way of doing so — by encouraging people to "do your own research" — can be traced back to 9/11, Olmsted said.<br />
<br />
"Even more so than conspiracy theories in the past, (today’s conspiracy theories) say, ‘Nothing is as it seems,’" Olmsted said. "You have to do your own research. And so all of that, I think, is an extension of the way that the 9/11 truthers approached the world."<br />
<br />
That phenomenon is apparent with QAnon, whose followers claim to believe that a secret cabal of cannibalistic, Satan-worshipping pedophiles is running the world, and that Trump is the savior. Adherents to the theory consider themselves "digital soldiers," and they believe the anonymous posts on fringe internet forums from the person known as "Q" are clues for them to decode. <br />
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The Sept. 11 attacks are not mentioned much by Q, but believers of the theory take it as a given that the attacks were a false flag perpetrated by the government, Rothschild said. For them, "it's just common knowledge."<br />
<br />
After the Sept. 11 attacks, and as the U.S. scaled up its powers for the war on terror, conspiracy theorists associated with QAnon or other movements continued framing major crises and violent events as false flags meant to justify the expansion of government powers, Rothschild said. <br />
<br />
The government, they warned, would go to any length to enact martial law, confiscate guns, or control and track the population with mask mandates and microchips in vaccines.<br />
<br />
"There is the before-and-after picture of what the government looks like after 9/11," Fenster said. "The expansion of the global war of terror, and the surveillance state that is part of that, is a nightmare for every conspiracy theorist. It doesn’t justify conspiracy theories, but it does provide some credibility for them by allowing the development of a state that looks very much like a state that would engage in conspiracy, or that would be the tool for conspiratorial actors."<br />
<br />
‘Loose change’: Giving rise to amateur video<br />
One of the main accelerators of the 9/11 conspiracy theories was the 2005 online release of "Loose Change," a radical documentary produced by a 21-year-old amateur filmmaker. <br />
<br />
The first iteration of the feature-length film, which stitched together computer graphics, archival footage and dramatic voiceovers, made the case that the Sept. 11 attacks were not the work of al-Qaida, and that the U.S. government knew about them and may have helped execute them. <br />
<br />
The film wasn’t the first time movies were used to further conspiracy theories — Uscinski pointed to the 1991 Oliver Stone film "JFK" — but experts said its success likely inspired future films in the same mold, like the viral "Plandemic" video from May 2020 that pushed a number of conspiracy theories about the coronavirus.<br />
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"I don't know if we get ‘The Deep Rig’ or ‘Plandemic’ or ‘Fall of the Cabal’ without ‘Loose Change,’" Rothschild said, referring to similar videos about alleged election fraud and QAnon. <br />
<br />
"When people can make their own conspiracy theory videos and post them, you get a whole new level of conspiracy theory thinking," Olmsted added.<br />
<br />
With a budget of just &#36;2,000, the original version of "Loose Change" quickly spread on Google Video, a precursor to YouTube, according to Esquire. Subsequent iterations, one of them co-produced by InfoWars founder Alex Jones, were released in 2005 and 2007.<br />
<br />
Alex Jones of InfoWars attends the rally in support of former President Donald Trump on Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington. (AP)<br />
<br />
"It’s a brilliant piece of agitprop," Fenster said. "It utilized the documentary form. It utilized the available video-editing technology. It utilized Google Earth extremely well, and did so at almost no cost other than time to the creators. Well-paced, well-edited … It became part of any sort of conspiracy theorists’ way of promoting their theories and finding an audience for them."<br />
<br />
Speaking to Esquire in 2020, the "Loose Change" filmmakers denied responsibility for the era of conspiracy theories that followed their flicks, rejecting the idea that they alone sent society down a rabbit hole of misinformation from which it never climbed out.<br />
<br />
But "Loose Change" showed how powerful conspiracy theories and misinformation can be when they make people feel like researchers and ask them to put the pieces together, Olmsted said. It also thrust Jones and InfoWars further into the spotlight. (He has since been banned by several technology companies for promoting conspiracy theories about the Sandy Hook shooting and other events.)<br />
<br />
"He was able to take the attention that he got from 9/11 and use that to create a channel that outlived the attention to 9/11," Fenster said, adding: "He can still talk about 9/11, and he’ll still draw connections between that event and what’s going on today."<br />
<br />
‘They don’t care’: Fueling distrust of government, enemies real and perceived<br />
Beyond the conspiracy theories that they spawned, the attacks on Sept. 11 also helped shape the modern era of misinformation, experts said, by fueling distrust of government and other civic institutions as credible sources of information.<br />
<br />
"I've talked to a number of family members of Q believers who were radicalized by 9/11, already being distrustful of the media and government," Rothschild said. <br />
<br />
As the U.S. war efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan soured, and as it became clear that Bush and his administration had been deceptive, or deceived, about the presence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, acceptance of various 9/11 conspiracy theories shot up, Olmsted said.<br />
<br />
"A lot of people said, ‘Well, maybe the triggering event was also a conspiracy,’" Olmsted said.<br />
<br />
Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani and President George W. Bush look toward the fallen buildings during a tour of the World Trade Center on Sept. 14, 2001, in New York. (AP)<br />
<br />
The pattern reflected the rising fears that the real enemies were actually internal to the U.S, experts said. And as the government expanded its powers for surveillance and interrogation with the passing of the Patriot Act and other measures, some people found reason to entertain other sinister thoughts: that major crises and crimes were being engineered or manipulated as a pretext for a more intrusive state.<br />
<br />
"9/11 conspiracy theorists look at what happened that day and simply can't believe that it was the work of 19 hijackers with box cutters," Rothschild said. "It's the same mindset that drives COVID-19 conspiracy theories and stolen election conspiracy theories."<br />
<br />
In the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks and the grinding wars that followed, some Americans looked for scapegoats, experts said. <br />
<br />
"When you have people who can’t trust institutions anymore, who are angry that the wars that they were promised great victories in didn’t turn out well, they start to look for people to blame," Ben Rhodes, a top national security adviser under Obama, said in a recent PBS documentary.<br />
<br />
Among the leaders channeling that mood was Trump, who promoted the baseless birther conspiracy about Obama for years, criticized the intelligence and diplomatic communities, broadly cast immigrants as criminals and terrorists, and campaigned for president with a promise to "drain the swamp" of the "deep state" officials in the government, experts said.<br />
<br />
Once in office, Trump pushed a number of false claims, punctuated by the stolen election lie.<br />
<br />
"For four years, the White House was occupied by somebody who either believed or espoused conspiracy theories," said Fenster.<br />
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Former President Donald Trump speaks during a rally on Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington. (AP)<br />
<br />
On Jan. 6, before Baranyi, Babbitt and hundreds of other Trump supporters stormed the Capitol in a bid to overturn the election result, a defeated Trump was on the Ellipse, across from the White House, continuing to claim that the race had been rigged. InfoWars’ Jones was there, too, having told a crowd the night before that "they tried to steal this election in front of everyone." And as PolitiFact reported, their followers believed they were being deceived and cheated.<br />
<br />
"The Jan. 6th insurrection at the Capitol was the logical endpoint of the 9/11 era," Rhodes said.<br />
<br />
Outside the Capitol later that day, with Babbitt’s blood still on his hand and his voice trembling, Baranyi signaled his own distrust of government and a desire to reassert control.<br />
<br />
Americans need to know, he told the local TV crew, that their leaders "don’t represent anyone."<br />
<br />
"They don’t care. They think we’re a joke," he said. "It was a joke to them until we got inside, and then all of a sudden, guns came out."<br />
<br />
"But I mean, we’re at a point now, it can’t be allowed to stand," Baranyi added. "We have to do something. People have to do something."<hr></div>
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">How the 9/11 attacks helped shape the modern misinformation, conspiracy theory industry</span><br />
<a href="https://www.politifact.com/article/2021/sep/09/how-911-attacks-helped-shape-modern-misinformation/" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Politi Fact</a><br />
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<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>IF YOUR TIME IS SHORT<br />
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The sudden terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, seemed to defy explanation and occurred just as the internet started to boom. That combination spawned various conspiracy theories and made them accessible in new ways.<br />
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The attacks also fueled distrust in government and fears of real and perceived enemies. Experts said the feeling of lost trust and security likely made some Americans more susceptible to conspiracy theories about 9/11 and other topics.<br />
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One key accelerator of the 9/11 truth movement was an amateur documentary released online in 2005, which created a template for future videos, such as “Plandemic.”<br />
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    <div class="spoiler" style="display: none;"><hr>Outside the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, a New Jersey man held up his hand for a camera as he told a local TV reporter about the chaotic scene he’d just witnessed inside the building. <br />
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His palm was smeared with blood — blood that belonged to Ashli Babbitt, the woman fatally shot by law enforcement as she tried to force her way further into the Capitol. "It could have been me, but she went in first," Thomas Baranyi, 29, said in the interview.<br />
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Baranyi said he entered the Capitol to tell Congress that "we need some kind of investigation into this," suggesting that, like many of the rioters who tore through the building, he believed the false narrative that the election was stolen from former President Donald Trump. <br />
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It wouldn’t have been Baranyi’s first time falling for false information. Ten years earlier, he had latched onto another bogus conspiracy theory, according to a childhood friend who spoke to Insider: He had come to believe that the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, were staged and part of a false-flag operation.<br />
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Scholars who study conspiracy theories say that kind of throughline is familiar. "People who believe in one conspiracy theory are more likely to believe in others," said Karen Douglas, a professor of social psychology at the University of Kent in the United Kingdom.<br />
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But with his 9/11 views, Baranyi is not alone. Twenty years after the attacks shocked the world and left thousands dead, various conspiracy theories questioning the official narrative continue to captivate some Americans.<br />
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The attacks and their aftermath also helped reshape, and in some ways turbocharge, the misinformation and conspiracy theory industry — encouraging people to turn to the internet for answers; demonstrating the power of "Plandemic"-style videos; fueling distrust of powerful institutions like the FBI, the intelligence community and the mainstream media; stoking fears of real and perceived enemies, including immigrants, Muslims and the surveillance state; and heightening a feeling of lost control, everywhere from airports to ballgames.<br />
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"It is a watershed, a landmark … in the history of conspiracy theories," said Kathryn Olmsted, a professor of history at the University of California, Davis, and the author of a book on conspiracy theories from World War II to 9/11. "You see an acceleration of previous trends, if not a whole new age of conspiracy theories, after 9/11."<br />
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The post-9/11 world saw the rise of conspiracy theories claiming that President Barack Obama wasn’t born in the U.S., that he was a Muslim born in Kenya and schooled in a madrassa; that the Sandy Hook school massacre and other mass shootings didn’t happen; that a child sex trafficking ring tied to Hillary Clinton was operating out of a pizza shop; that Trump was waging a secret war against an elite group of pedophiles; that the coronavirus pandemic was a hoax and the COVID-19 vaccines carried microchips; and that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump.<br />
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It was more than coincidence that such beliefs thrived post-9/11. In several ways, 9/11 planted the seeds for today’s thicket of misinformation, according to experts who study the history, politics and psychology behind conspiracy theories. <br />
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'A world-changing event': Searching for explanations in times of crisis<br />
A conspiracy theory is an attempt to explain an event with claims that small groups of sinister or powerful people are working in secret, usually against the common good. <br />
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"It’s a theory because you can’t necessarily prove it, and it’s a conspiracy because there’s another explanation for how things are occurring," said Mark Fenster, a professor of law at the University of Florida and author of a book on American conspiracy theories.<br />
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People gravitate to conspiracy theories for several reasons, including their need to know the truth and feel safe, said Douglas, who studies the psychology of conspiracy theories. A loss of trust in established institutions makes people more inclined to accept misinformation and conspiracy theories — especially about crises that seem inexplicable.<br />
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Conspiracy theories did not originate with the Sept. 11 attacks, of course. They have surrounded sudden crises throughout history, such as the attack on Pearl Harbor that dragged the U.S. into World War II. A few weeks after John F. Kennedy’s assassination — and the point-blank killing of his suspected assassin — about 50% of Americans believed it was the work of a conspiracy rather than a lone gunman, said Joseph Uscinski, a professor of political science at the University of Miami and author on conspiracy theories. By the mid-1970s, that belief had taken hold among 80% of Americans.<br />
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"The JFK assassination conspiracy theories were very popular in the 1970s," Olmsted said. But to really engage with and investigate them, "you had to go to conferences, you had to join a group where they would physically meet." Some people even traveled to Dallas.<br />
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The theories born out of Sept. 11 were different, because they were the first to spread in the internet age, Olmsted said. That made them easier to share for conspiracy theorists, who once had to pester people with flyers to disseminate information about their worldviews.<br />
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Firefighters work near the site of the World Trade Center after the terrorist attack on Sept. 11, 2001. (AP)<br />
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"9/11 really was the real hinge point between conspiracy theories being a fringe message board and talk-radio phenomenon, and a mainstream issue that we're still dealing with today," said Mike Rothschild, the author of a book on the baseless QAnon conspiracy theory. <br />
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He added: "9/11 was a massive, world-changing event that seemed to defy explanation — a petri dish for conspiracy theories. And it happened at the same time as the internet was becoming a commonplace and everyday method of communication."<br />
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The 9/11 conspiracy theories, some of which live on with groups such as Architects &amp; Engineers for 9/11 Truth, were wide-ranging. They said that al-Qaida wasn’t responsible; that the military and intelligence community stood down; that it was an inside job; that the buildings collapsed from a controlled demolition; that jet fuel doesn’t melt steel beams; that no Jewish people died; that no plane hit the Pentagon; and that there were no planes at all, just holograms.<br />
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Broadly speaking, the theories fell into two categories, Fenster said. There were those that said people in power "let it happen," and those that said they "made it happen on purpose."<br />
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The earliest fringe claims suggesting the attacks weren’t what they seemed popped up almost immediately after the planes struck the twin towers. More elaborate theories soon circulated in Europe before seeping into the U.S. mainstream. Just two months after the attacks, President George W. Bush urged the United Nations to "never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories."<br />
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Yet by the mid-2000s, such theories were entrenched enough that the State Department devoted a webpage to addressing them. The 9/11 Commission’s final report took them on in 2004, and a year later, the magazine Popular Mechanics published a special issue debunking them. The theories drew interest from Hollywood celebrities. In 2012, actors Martin Sheen and Woody Harrelson were planning on making a film about them, according to the Guardian, although their project never made it to the big screen.<br />
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"It is extremely difficult to dislodge or anticipate conspiracy theories once they start," Jamie Gorelick, a member of the 9/11 Commission, told the Wall Street Journal in 2020.<br />
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‘Do your own research’: Setting a blueprint for the digital age<br />
There’s no evidence that higher percentages of people believe in conspiracy theories today than before the Sept. 11 attacks, said Uscinski, who has conducted polling on conspiracy theories for years. Other experts who spoke to PolitiFact agreed that the raw numbers haven’t spiked. <br />
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And yet, the experts agreed, it certainly feels like the grip of conspiracy theories on Americans is worse than it has ever been, with political leaders and influential media figures indulging them widely and news organizations like PolitiFact covering them closely. <br />
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The Jan. 6 insurrection was fueled by beliefs that the election was stolen. And prominent public figures like Republican Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, who has supported QAnon and many other conspiracy theories, including about Sept. 11, have drawn elevated attention to them.<br />
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Jacob Anthony Chansley, 34, of Arizona, known as the "QAnon Shaman," attends the rally in support of former President Donald Trump before storming the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington. (AP)<br />
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The internet and social media seem to have brought conspiracy theories out of the shadows, making them feel more visible and prevalent, if not more credible. And 9/11 truthers refined the blueprint for how to harness those technologies.<br />
<br />
"For people who are already inclined toward conspiracy theories, it is easier now to find them and become embedded in conspiracy communities more quickly," Douglas said. "Conspiracy theories have always been with us and people have always believed them. However, the means of finding and sharing conspiracy theories has certainly changed."<br />
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In the years since Sept. 11, online misinformers associated with QAnon, COVID-19 anti-vaccine activism and other recent movements have used social media platforms such as Facebook to propagate information, communicate in groups, and make a quick buck. One way of doing so — by encouraging people to "do your own research" — can be traced back to 9/11, Olmsted said.<br />
<br />
"Even more so than conspiracy theories in the past, (today’s conspiracy theories) say, ‘Nothing is as it seems,’" Olmsted said. "You have to do your own research. And so all of that, I think, is an extension of the way that the 9/11 truthers approached the world."<br />
<br />
That phenomenon is apparent with QAnon, whose followers claim to believe that a secret cabal of cannibalistic, Satan-worshipping pedophiles is running the world, and that Trump is the savior. Adherents to the theory consider themselves "digital soldiers," and they believe the anonymous posts on fringe internet forums from the person known as "Q" are clues for them to decode. <br />
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The Sept. 11 attacks are not mentioned much by Q, but believers of the theory take it as a given that the attacks were a false flag perpetrated by the government, Rothschild said. For them, "it's just common knowledge."<br />
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After the Sept. 11 attacks, and as the U.S. scaled up its powers for the war on terror, conspiracy theorists associated with QAnon or other movements continued framing major crises and violent events as false flags meant to justify the expansion of government powers, Rothschild said. <br />
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The government, they warned, would go to any length to enact martial law, confiscate guns, or control and track the population with mask mandates and microchips in vaccines.<br />
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"There is the before-and-after picture of what the government looks like after 9/11," Fenster said. "The expansion of the global war of terror, and the surveillance state that is part of that, is a nightmare for every conspiracy theorist. It doesn’t justify conspiracy theories, but it does provide some credibility for them by allowing the development of a state that looks very much like a state that would engage in conspiracy, or that would be the tool for conspiratorial actors."<br />
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‘Loose change’: Giving rise to amateur video<br />
One of the main accelerators of the 9/11 conspiracy theories was the 2005 online release of "Loose Change," a radical documentary produced by a 21-year-old amateur filmmaker. <br />
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The first iteration of the feature-length film, which stitched together computer graphics, archival footage and dramatic voiceovers, made the case that the Sept. 11 attacks were not the work of al-Qaida, and that the U.S. government knew about them and may have helped execute them. <br />
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The film wasn’t the first time movies were used to further conspiracy theories — Uscinski pointed to the 1991 Oliver Stone film "JFK" — but experts said its success likely inspired future films in the same mold, like the viral "Plandemic" video from May 2020 that pushed a number of conspiracy theories about the coronavirus.<br />
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"I don't know if we get ‘The Deep Rig’ or ‘Plandemic’ or ‘Fall of the Cabal’ without ‘Loose Change,’" Rothschild said, referring to similar videos about alleged election fraud and QAnon. <br />
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"When people can make their own conspiracy theory videos and post them, you get a whole new level of conspiracy theory thinking," Olmsted added.<br />
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With a budget of just &#36;2,000, the original version of "Loose Change" quickly spread on Google Video, a precursor to YouTube, according to Esquire. Subsequent iterations, one of them co-produced by InfoWars founder Alex Jones, were released in 2005 and 2007.<br />
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Alex Jones of InfoWars attends the rally in support of former President Donald Trump on Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington. (AP)<br />
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"It’s a brilliant piece of agitprop," Fenster said. "It utilized the documentary form. It utilized the available video-editing technology. It utilized Google Earth extremely well, and did so at almost no cost other than time to the creators. Well-paced, well-edited … It became part of any sort of conspiracy theorists’ way of promoting their theories and finding an audience for them."<br />
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Speaking to Esquire in 2020, the "Loose Change" filmmakers denied responsibility for the era of conspiracy theories that followed their flicks, rejecting the idea that they alone sent society down a rabbit hole of misinformation from which it never climbed out.<br />
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But "Loose Change" showed how powerful conspiracy theories and misinformation can be when they make people feel like researchers and ask them to put the pieces together, Olmsted said. It also thrust Jones and InfoWars further into the spotlight. (He has since been banned by several technology companies for promoting conspiracy theories about the Sandy Hook shooting and other events.)<br />
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"He was able to take the attention that he got from 9/11 and use that to create a channel that outlived the attention to 9/11," Fenster said, adding: "He can still talk about 9/11, and he’ll still draw connections between that event and what’s going on today."<br />
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‘They don’t care’: Fueling distrust of government, enemies real and perceived<br />
Beyond the conspiracy theories that they spawned, the attacks on Sept. 11 also helped shape the modern era of misinformation, experts said, by fueling distrust of government and other civic institutions as credible sources of information.<br />
<br />
"I've talked to a number of family members of Q believers who were radicalized by 9/11, already being distrustful of the media and government," Rothschild said. <br />
<br />
As the U.S. war efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan soured, and as it became clear that Bush and his administration had been deceptive, or deceived, about the presence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, acceptance of various 9/11 conspiracy theories shot up, Olmsted said.<br />
<br />
"A lot of people said, ‘Well, maybe the triggering event was also a conspiracy,’" Olmsted said.<br />
<br />
Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani and President George W. Bush look toward the fallen buildings during a tour of the World Trade Center on Sept. 14, 2001, in New York. (AP)<br />
<br />
The pattern reflected the rising fears that the real enemies were actually internal to the U.S, experts said. And as the government expanded its powers for surveillance and interrogation with the passing of the Patriot Act and other measures, some people found reason to entertain other sinister thoughts: that major crises and crimes were being engineered or manipulated as a pretext for a more intrusive state.<br />
<br />
"9/11 conspiracy theorists look at what happened that day and simply can't believe that it was the work of 19 hijackers with box cutters," Rothschild said. "It's the same mindset that drives COVID-19 conspiracy theories and stolen election conspiracy theories."<br />
<br />
In the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks and the grinding wars that followed, some Americans looked for scapegoats, experts said. <br />
<br />
"When you have people who can’t trust institutions anymore, who are angry that the wars that they were promised great victories in didn’t turn out well, they start to look for people to blame," Ben Rhodes, a top national security adviser under Obama, said in a recent PBS documentary.<br />
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Among the leaders channeling that mood was Trump, who promoted the baseless birther conspiracy about Obama for years, criticized the intelligence and diplomatic communities, broadly cast immigrants as criminals and terrorists, and campaigned for president with a promise to "drain the swamp" of the "deep state" officials in the government, experts said.<br />
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Once in office, Trump pushed a number of false claims, punctuated by the stolen election lie.<br />
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"For four years, the White House was occupied by somebody who either believed or espoused conspiracy theories," said Fenster.<br />
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Former President Donald Trump speaks during a rally on Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington. (AP)<br />
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On Jan. 6, before Baranyi, Babbitt and hundreds of other Trump supporters stormed the Capitol in a bid to overturn the election result, a defeated Trump was on the Ellipse, across from the White House, continuing to claim that the race had been rigged. InfoWars’ Jones was there, too, having told a crowd the night before that "they tried to steal this election in front of everyone." And as PolitiFact reported, their followers believed they were being deceived and cheated.<br />
<br />
"The Jan. 6th insurrection at the Capitol was the logical endpoint of the 9/11 era," Rhodes said.<br />
<br />
Outside the Capitol later that day, with Babbitt’s blood still on his hand and his voice trembling, Baranyi signaled his own distrust of government and a desire to reassert control.<br />
<br />
Americans need to know, he told the local TV crew, that their leaders "don’t represent anyone."<br />
<br />
"They don’t care. They think we’re a joke," he said. "It was a joke to them until we got inside, and then all of a sudden, guns came out."<br />
<br />
"But I mean, we’re at a point now, it can’t be allowed to stand," Baranyi added. "We have to do something. People have to do something."<hr></div>
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