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		<title><![CDATA[Atheist Forums - History]]></title>
		<link>https://atheistforums.org/</link>
		<description><![CDATA[Atheist Forums - https://atheistforums.org]]></description>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2026 20:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[Nero never blamed Christians?]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-66548.html</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2025 22:00:22 +0000</pubDate>
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			<description><![CDATA[Richard Carrier was recently on the MythVision Podcast where he talked how there doesn't seem to be any evidence that Nero blamed Christians for setting Rome on fire. The only early (from that time) source seems to be Tacitus, but it seems he was talking about something else. Then he lists prominent chroniclers of the time who never mentioned it.<br />
<br />
Here is some of what he said:<br />
<br />
<div>
    <div class="pre-spoiler">
    <input type="button" value="Show Content" style="width:80px;font-size:10px;margin:0px;padding:0px;" onclick="if (this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display != '') { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display = '';this.value = 'Hide Content'; } else { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display = 'none'; this.value = 'Show Content';}"><br />
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    <div class="spoiler" style="display: none;"><hr>
Tacitus basically accuses the Christians of the equivalent of 9/11, burning down Rome mass murder all of this stuff, but no one's heard of it for untill the end of the fourth century.<br />
<br />
And so how does that happen? We can't just gloss over this. I'm just going to go through the list of all the places where this doesn't show up.<br />
<br />
Pliny the Younger has never heard of it. So this is a huge public event that would be in public memory for generations, right? Like there's no way you just forget about this, right?<br />
<br />
And we know from him through the way that he talks about Christians that his unclePliny the Elder who wrote this eyewitness history of this event where never mentions it has no knowledge of it.<br />
<br />
Suetonius never mentions this. He only mentions one persecution under Nero and he lists the Christians that were persecuted. He lists it a list of public morals legislation. So he has no knowledge of them being accused of being mass murderers and he mentions the fire, but he doesn't connect them to the fire. He has no knowledge of Christians being connected to the fire. He has no knowledge of Nero persecuting Christians for the fire. It's not in there. And when he does mention Christians being persecuted, he seems to think that it was just for some sort of public morals thing and not for, you know, mass murder destroying Rome.<br />
<br />
Then all the Christian writings. The acts of Peter and the acts of Pilate. You know, these are forgeries, they're fictions written in the second century, but they relate basically how Peter and Paul got killed by Nero. So the persecution of Christians to Christians all throughout the second century. We see Tertullian confirms this as well only knows about this that Peter and Paul were killed by Nero for some more sort of weird petty political reasons. No knowledge of the fire, no knowledge of connection to the fire.<br />
<br />
The Acts of Peter and the Acts of Paul. There's kind of like sort of political intrigue yada yada. Point being is they're not killed for anything to do with the fire, right? They're not killed for arson. There's no fire. Like it never happened.<br />
<br />
There are no masses of Christians. There's just Peter and Paul and maybe a few of their colleagues are killed. So it's the only persecution by Nero that even Tertullian has heard of. And Tertullian read Tacitus. So we know he's a reader of Tacitus. So he'd never heard of this burning of Rome connection either. So how could Tertullian have never heard of it, right?<br />
<br />
So when Tacitus talks about the Christians being persecuted by Nero, he's talking about these acts of Peter and the acts of Paul, those legends. And we know that because he explicitly says, "Oh, it's because of the killing of Peter and Paul." He has no knowledge of the fire or anything that uh and the Christians themselves when they're telling narratives, whole narratives about the persecution under Nero. <br />
<br />
And then Lucius has never heard of it. And Lactantius has never heard of it. And Lactantius was a renowned Latinist. So he would definitely have known Tacitus.<br />
<br />
So you have even like Tacitus is not aware of this. He wrote a whole history of the church that goes through persecutions. He doesn't mention this important event.<br />
<br />
Christian apologists will say, "Well, maybe this just happened but it just wasn't popular or whatever." Like they can make up an excuse, but when you have to make up excuses for all these sources I listed, your argument is improbable, right? Like how probable is it that all these sources had never heard of it, right?<br />
<br />
Book of Revelation also doesn't know about this. So, so Revelation's narrative, of course, is coded, so you have to like interpret it, but of course, it never says Nero, but you can work it out that he's talking about Nero. And its narrative is that Nero persecuted Christians and then the fire of Rome was God's punishment for persecuting Christians. So even the author of Revelation had no knowledge that Christians were persecuted for the fire. He's thinking of some other persecution which is probably a reference to the legend that we see in the acts of Paul and Peter.<br />
<br />
<a href="https://youtu.be/jF3EUqLoH6U?si=C-UYT6RUL8ugG7Nw" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/jF3EUqLoH6U?si=C-UYT6RUL8ugG7Nw</a><br />
<hr></div>
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]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Richard Carrier was recently on the MythVision Podcast where he talked how there doesn't seem to be any evidence that Nero blamed Christians for setting Rome on fire. The only early (from that time) source seems to be Tacitus, but it seems he was talking about something else. Then he lists prominent chroniclers of the time who never mentioned it.<br />
<br />
Here is some of what he said:<br />
<br />
<div>
    <div class="pre-spoiler">
    <input type="button" value="Show Content" style="width:80px;font-size:10px;margin:0px;padding:0px;" onclick="if (this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display != '') { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display = '';this.value = 'Hide Content'; } else { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display = 'none'; this.value = 'Show Content';}"><br />
    </div>
    <div class="spoiler" style="display: none;"><hr>
Tacitus basically accuses the Christians of the equivalent of 9/11, burning down Rome mass murder all of this stuff, but no one's heard of it for untill the end of the fourth century.<br />
<br />
And so how does that happen? We can't just gloss over this. I'm just going to go through the list of all the places where this doesn't show up.<br />
<br />
Pliny the Younger has never heard of it. So this is a huge public event that would be in public memory for generations, right? Like there's no way you just forget about this, right?<br />
<br />
And we know from him through the way that he talks about Christians that his unclePliny the Elder who wrote this eyewitness history of this event where never mentions it has no knowledge of it.<br />
<br />
Suetonius never mentions this. He only mentions one persecution under Nero and he lists the Christians that were persecuted. He lists it a list of public morals legislation. So he has no knowledge of them being accused of being mass murderers and he mentions the fire, but he doesn't connect them to the fire. He has no knowledge of Christians being connected to the fire. He has no knowledge of Nero persecuting Christians for the fire. It's not in there. And when he does mention Christians being persecuted, he seems to think that it was just for some sort of public morals thing and not for, you know, mass murder destroying Rome.<br />
<br />
Then all the Christian writings. The acts of Peter and the acts of Pilate. You know, these are forgeries, they're fictions written in the second century, but they relate basically how Peter and Paul got killed by Nero. So the persecution of Christians to Christians all throughout the second century. We see Tertullian confirms this as well only knows about this that Peter and Paul were killed by Nero for some more sort of weird petty political reasons. No knowledge of the fire, no knowledge of connection to the fire.<br />
<br />
The Acts of Peter and the Acts of Paul. There's kind of like sort of political intrigue yada yada. Point being is they're not killed for anything to do with the fire, right? They're not killed for arson. There's no fire. Like it never happened.<br />
<br />
There are no masses of Christians. There's just Peter and Paul and maybe a few of their colleagues are killed. So it's the only persecution by Nero that even Tertullian has heard of. And Tertullian read Tacitus. So we know he's a reader of Tacitus. So he'd never heard of this burning of Rome connection either. So how could Tertullian have never heard of it, right?<br />
<br />
So when Tacitus talks about the Christians being persecuted by Nero, he's talking about these acts of Peter and the acts of Paul, those legends. And we know that because he explicitly says, "Oh, it's because of the killing of Peter and Paul." He has no knowledge of the fire or anything that uh and the Christians themselves when they're telling narratives, whole narratives about the persecution under Nero. <br />
<br />
And then Lucius has never heard of it. And Lactantius has never heard of it. And Lactantius was a renowned Latinist. So he would definitely have known Tacitus.<br />
<br />
So you have even like Tacitus is not aware of this. He wrote a whole history of the church that goes through persecutions. He doesn't mention this important event.<br />
<br />
Christian apologists will say, "Well, maybe this just happened but it just wasn't popular or whatever." Like they can make up an excuse, but when you have to make up excuses for all these sources I listed, your argument is improbable, right? Like how probable is it that all these sources had never heard of it, right?<br />
<br />
Book of Revelation also doesn't know about this. So, so Revelation's narrative, of course, is coded, so you have to like interpret it, but of course, it never says Nero, but you can work it out that he's talking about Nero. And its narrative is that Nero persecuted Christians and then the fire of Rome was God's punishment for persecuting Christians. So even the author of Revelation had no knowledge that Christians were persecuted for the fire. He's thinking of some other persecution which is probably a reference to the legend that we see in the acts of Paul and Peter.<br />
<br />
<a href="https://youtu.be/jF3EUqLoH6U?si=C-UYT6RUL8ugG7Nw" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/jF3EUqLoH6U?si=C-UYT6RUL8ugG7Nw</a><br />
<hr></div>
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			<title><![CDATA[Same Harris interviews Tom Holland]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-66518.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2025 12:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-66518.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[I was surprised to find out recently that Sam Harris actually interviewed Tom Holland (author of Dominion and other interesting works on history) and <span style="text-decoration: line-through;" class="mycode_s">expressed agreement with him about the impact of Christianity on the western world</span> and doesn't push back against his central thesis in Dominion! Sam Harris, a renowned anti-theist ... What context am I missing here?<br />
<br />
Here's the video:<br />
<br />
<br />
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/n63cnG3jRWk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe><br />
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[I was surprised to find out recently that Sam Harris actually interviewed Tom Holland (author of Dominion and other interesting works on history) and <span style="text-decoration: line-through;" class="mycode_s">expressed agreement with him about the impact of Christianity on the western world</span> and doesn't push back against his central thesis in Dominion! Sam Harris, a renowned anti-theist ... What context am I missing here?<br />
<br />
Here's the video:<br />
<br />
<br />
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/n63cnG3jRWk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe><br />
]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[1960s Sexual Revolution]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-66345.html</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 19 Feb 2025 15:04:18 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-66345.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[The so-called Sexual Revolution is something that conservative Christians have been railing against for years and blaming it for everything under the sun.<br />
<br />
But what is the sexual revolution? I ask because I usually don't hear anything about it except from already mentioned lunatics. Is (was) this something real that happened in the 1960s or is just another moral panic? I mean, it all looks like an idiotic take on feminism, if you ask me.<br />
<br />
To me, it seemed that sexual revolution was the time in the 50s when Kinsey showed up and people started talking about sex more and slowly becoming more understanding towards gays, masturbation, sex in general as something more than just procreation.<br />
But then again, people have been talking about sex before, so maybe it's not even that.<br />
<br />
Now let's turn to what sexual revolution is not or maybe it is, you tell me - that's why I opened this topic.<br />
<br />
Looking in one of those books on the Amazon written by a Christian woman, sexual revolution is described as the moment when the contraceptive pill showed up which made women have irresponsible sex ("like men"). But, apparently, in doing this "dirty deed" women are actually suffering inside because they are not "designed" like men to just have a lot of sex with different partners (yes, men don't get blamed for being horny and having sex), but they want to be subdued by a man in marriage. <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">Yes, the logic goes that if a woman chooses to have out of wedlock sex with several partners, she is doing it against her free will and is manipulated by men's fantasies, but if she chooses to be a housewife, who obeys husband's every order, she is not manipulated by men.</span><br />
<br />
This sexual freedom (aka slavery to male sexual fantasies) is also, apparently, driving women to prostitution and pornography, only to make them frigid and not wanting to have kids. I'm sure it also somehow makes them into communists, too.<br />
<br />
In reality, it is not independence that will drive women to prostitution, but patriarchy where they are kept uneducated as well as faced with miserable opportunities for employment, thus turning them to prostitution as only available work, since irresponsible daddies frequently don't provide. This is why there were many more prostitutes in the 19th century, and earlier, than today.<br />
<br />
This is from forward in the book "The Case Against the Sexual Revolution" captured from Amazon just to see what I was referring to and as you'll see it's total ideology driven nonsense.<br />
<br />
<div>
    <div class="pre-spoiler">
    <input type="button" value="Show Content" style="width:80px;font-size:10px;margin:0px;padding:0px;" onclick="if (this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display != '') { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display = '';this.value = 'Hide Content'; } else { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display = 'none'; this.value = 'Show Content';}"><br />
    </div>
    <div class="spoiler" style="display: none;"><hr>What did the sexual revolution of the 1960s ever do for us? The invention of the contraceptive pill reduced women’s fear of unwanted pregnancy, enabling them to provide the kind of sex a lot of men prefer: copious and commitment-free. Many women claim to enjoy this kind of sex too. But, as Perry explains, there’s good reason to disbelieve at least some such reports. For we now live in a culture where, though it isn’t taboo for a man to choke a woman during sex, or anally penetrate her, or ejaculate on her face while filming it, it is taboo for a young woman to express discomfort about the nature of the sexual bargain she’s expected by society to make. This bargain says: sacrifice your own wellbeing for the pleasures of men in order to compete in the heterosexual dating marketplace at all.<br />
<br />
What the sexual revolution had for women in the twentieth century have been supersized in the digital age of the twenty-first. There is little doubt that contemporary sexual culture is destructive for younger women in particular. It sells them a sexbot aesthetic, pressures them into promiscuity, bombards them with dick pics and violent pornography, and tells them to enjoy being humiliated and assaulted in bed. It says that, as long as they choose it, being exploited for money is ‘sex work’ and that ‘sex work is work’. It also tells women not to mix up sex with love and to stay disconnected and emotionless from partners.– ignoring the obvious fact that telling women to subdue their minds and submit their bodies to physically stronger strangers can be lethal.<br />
<br />
In a culture dominated by male sexuality, there’s an obvious interest in convincing women that they want to have sex like men do, and many women go along with things they later come to regret.<br />
<br />
Both liberal feminism’s narrow focus on choice and its incapacity to discuss deep differences between women and men stem from its intellectual forefather: liberalism, a political tradition heavily focused on freedom of choice as the thing definitive of personhood. The fantasy of a liberal subject is of an ostensibly sexless individual, defined mostly by the presence of a free will, untethered by family ties or community expectations and pursuing private preferences in a relatively unfettered way. <br />
<br />
once we acknowledge the ‘hard limits imposed by biology’, we can make informed inferences about female wellbeing in particular – rooted in the real, and not what is projected or fantasised by men.<br />
<hr></div>
</div>
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[The so-called Sexual Revolution is something that conservative Christians have been railing against for years and blaming it for everything under the sun.<br />
<br />
But what is the sexual revolution? I ask because I usually don't hear anything about it except from already mentioned lunatics. Is (was) this something real that happened in the 1960s or is just another moral panic? I mean, it all looks like an idiotic take on feminism, if you ask me.<br />
<br />
To me, it seemed that sexual revolution was the time in the 50s when Kinsey showed up and people started talking about sex more and slowly becoming more understanding towards gays, masturbation, sex in general as something more than just procreation.<br />
But then again, people have been talking about sex before, so maybe it's not even that.<br />
<br />
Now let's turn to what sexual revolution is not or maybe it is, you tell me - that's why I opened this topic.<br />
<br />
Looking in one of those books on the Amazon written by a Christian woman, sexual revolution is described as the moment when the contraceptive pill showed up which made women have irresponsible sex ("like men"). But, apparently, in doing this "dirty deed" women are actually suffering inside because they are not "designed" like men to just have a lot of sex with different partners (yes, men don't get blamed for being horny and having sex), but they want to be subdued by a man in marriage. <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">Yes, the logic goes that if a woman chooses to have out of wedlock sex with several partners, she is doing it against her free will and is manipulated by men's fantasies, but if she chooses to be a housewife, who obeys husband's every order, she is not manipulated by men.</span><br />
<br />
This sexual freedom (aka slavery to male sexual fantasies) is also, apparently, driving women to prostitution and pornography, only to make them frigid and not wanting to have kids. I'm sure it also somehow makes them into communists, too.<br />
<br />
In reality, it is not independence that will drive women to prostitution, but patriarchy where they are kept uneducated as well as faced with miserable opportunities for employment, thus turning them to prostitution as only available work, since irresponsible daddies frequently don't provide. This is why there were many more prostitutes in the 19th century, and earlier, than today.<br />
<br />
This is from forward in the book "The Case Against the Sexual Revolution" captured from Amazon just to see what I was referring to and as you'll see it's total ideology driven nonsense.<br />
<br />
<div>
    <div class="pre-spoiler">
    <input type="button" value="Show Content" style="width:80px;font-size:10px;margin:0px;padding:0px;" onclick="if (this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display != '') { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display = '';this.value = 'Hide Content'; } else { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display = 'none'; this.value = 'Show Content';}"><br />
    </div>
    <div class="spoiler" style="display: none;"><hr>What did the sexual revolution of the 1960s ever do for us? The invention of the contraceptive pill reduced women’s fear of unwanted pregnancy, enabling them to provide the kind of sex a lot of men prefer: copious and commitment-free. Many women claim to enjoy this kind of sex too. But, as Perry explains, there’s good reason to disbelieve at least some such reports. For we now live in a culture where, though it isn’t taboo for a man to choke a woman during sex, or anally penetrate her, or ejaculate on her face while filming it, it is taboo for a young woman to express discomfort about the nature of the sexual bargain she’s expected by society to make. This bargain says: sacrifice your own wellbeing for the pleasures of men in order to compete in the heterosexual dating marketplace at all.<br />
<br />
What the sexual revolution had for women in the twentieth century have been supersized in the digital age of the twenty-first. There is little doubt that contemporary sexual culture is destructive for younger women in particular. It sells them a sexbot aesthetic, pressures them into promiscuity, bombards them with dick pics and violent pornography, and tells them to enjoy being humiliated and assaulted in bed. It says that, as long as they choose it, being exploited for money is ‘sex work’ and that ‘sex work is work’. It also tells women not to mix up sex with love and to stay disconnected and emotionless from partners.– ignoring the obvious fact that telling women to subdue their minds and submit their bodies to physically stronger strangers can be lethal.<br />
<br />
In a culture dominated by male sexuality, there’s an obvious interest in convincing women that they want to have sex like men do, and many women go along with things they later come to regret.<br />
<br />
Both liberal feminism’s narrow focus on choice and its incapacity to discuss deep differences between women and men stem from its intellectual forefather: liberalism, a political tradition heavily focused on freedom of choice as the thing definitive of personhood. The fantasy of a liberal subject is of an ostensibly sexless individual, defined mostly by the presence of a free will, untethered by family ties or community expectations and pursuing private preferences in a relatively unfettered way. <br />
<br />
once we acknowledge the ‘hard limits imposed by biology’, we can make informed inferences about female wellbeing in particular – rooted in the real, and not what is projected or fantasised by men.<br />
<hr></div>
</div>
]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Historical Hercules]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-66129.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 15 Sep 2024 14:43:52 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-66129.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Using the same methodology to prove the historical Jesus and, more importantly, lowering the bar of what/ who historical Jesus was, we can also say that there was a historical Hercules.<br />
<br />
Like, for example, the case that Nancy Loewen makes in her book "Hercules":<br />
<br />
<img src="https://i.postimg.cc/QNms1vQj/heracl.jpg" alt="[Image: heracl.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<br />
Can you prove she is wrong?<br />
<br />
But the question also is <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">"Who was historical Hercules?"</span> How many of these legends about him are true? Was he just some strong guy who was a strong soldier? Or was he some king? Or was he some very strong family guy, but he became so mentally ill and thus violent that he even killed his wife and kids?<br />
<br />
Nancy doesn't go into details, but maybe we could analyze his myths and use the same criteria that Jesus's historicists use when they analyze gospels.<br />
<br />
When he was a child, he couldn't yet control his strength (powers) so he got angry that he killed his music teacher. This is embarrassing. Why would anyone invent this? This must have happened.<br />
<br />
As a young lad, Hercules lived in some rural mountains with his parents. Now this is too embarrassing if someone was just inventing a superhero god who was to inspire people (they would definitely put him in some nice distinguished city to live). Therefore this must have happened and was known, so they couldn't just sweep it under the rug.<br />
<br />
He then got married to a princess (but she was probably something below princess, although probably not so low as a peasant), and then he killed her and their kids thinking they were snakes. Now, this is too embarrassing for someone to invent this, so this probably happened. It probably wasn't because of the curse that he killed them, but something more mundane, like he was drunk or schizophrenic or bipolar or something else - we may never know.<br />
<br />
And then come his tasks. I won't spend much time on them, but I will say that some probably happened. The task where he meets Atlas and holds the sky for him is invented because we know how cosmology works. But the task where he had to was the stables of more than 3000 cows probably happened (although it was probably much fewer cows) because who would invent that a hero has to wash shit away? Or when he had to sail to some island to pick up cows, it also happened because it is unheroic, especially since he killed a giant with three bodies there which was probably added later to make this mundane and shameful task somewhat worthy of a hero.<br />
<br />
After he finished those tasks, he had some other adventures which were probably all mythical because they were all very heroic, like joining the armies where he fought for good causes, punishing kings, and saving people from monsters. Especially when he becomes god later in life, meaning that people didn't consider him to be god, but only added it to him later. So he was maybe some strong and ingenious man who sometimes couldn't control his temper.<br />
<br />
So, are you a Hercules mythicist or a Hercules historicist?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Using the same methodology to prove the historical Jesus and, more importantly, lowering the bar of what/ who historical Jesus was, we can also say that there was a historical Hercules.<br />
<br />
Like, for example, the case that Nancy Loewen makes in her book "Hercules":<br />
<br />
<img src="https://i.postimg.cc/QNms1vQj/heracl.jpg" alt="[Image: heracl.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<br />
Can you prove she is wrong?<br />
<br />
But the question also is <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">"Who was historical Hercules?"</span> How many of these legends about him are true? Was he just some strong guy who was a strong soldier? Or was he some king? Or was he some very strong family guy, but he became so mentally ill and thus violent that he even killed his wife and kids?<br />
<br />
Nancy doesn't go into details, but maybe we could analyze his myths and use the same criteria that Jesus's historicists use when they analyze gospels.<br />
<br />
When he was a child, he couldn't yet control his strength (powers) so he got angry that he killed his music teacher. This is embarrassing. Why would anyone invent this? This must have happened.<br />
<br />
As a young lad, Hercules lived in some rural mountains with his parents. Now this is too embarrassing if someone was just inventing a superhero god who was to inspire people (they would definitely put him in some nice distinguished city to live). Therefore this must have happened and was known, so they couldn't just sweep it under the rug.<br />
<br />
He then got married to a princess (but she was probably something below princess, although probably not so low as a peasant), and then he killed her and their kids thinking they were snakes. Now, this is too embarrassing for someone to invent this, so this probably happened. It probably wasn't because of the curse that he killed them, but something more mundane, like he was drunk or schizophrenic or bipolar or something else - we may never know.<br />
<br />
And then come his tasks. I won't spend much time on them, but I will say that some probably happened. The task where he meets Atlas and holds the sky for him is invented because we know how cosmology works. But the task where he had to was the stables of more than 3000 cows probably happened (although it was probably much fewer cows) because who would invent that a hero has to wash shit away? Or when he had to sail to some island to pick up cows, it also happened because it is unheroic, especially since he killed a giant with three bodies there which was probably added later to make this mundane and shameful task somewhat worthy of a hero.<br />
<br />
After he finished those tasks, he had some other adventures which were probably all mythical because they were all very heroic, like joining the armies where he fought for good causes, punishing kings, and saving people from monsters. Especially when he becomes god later in life, meaning that people didn't consider him to be god, but only added it to him later. So he was maybe some strong and ingenious man who sometimes couldn't control his temper.<br />
<br />
So, are you a Hercules mythicist or a Hercules historicist?]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Arguments from embarrassment disprove Jesus?]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-66045.html</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jul 2024 21:28:42 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-66045.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[You've heard it before that some of the claims and stories in the gospels are too embarrassing to be fabricated, so therefore they uncover some truthful lines from the life of historical Jesus.<br />
<br />
But aside from the fact that many fictional characters and other gods also have embarrassing elements, I would rather concentrate on the fact that it seems to me that those embarrassing moments actually prove even more that Jesus was fabricated. So I would like to hear your opinion.<br />
<br />
<span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">#1 Jesus had to be from Nazareth because it is a small, obscure village, so there is no reason why someone would put Jesus there, but they would rather put him in a bigger respectable town.</span><br />
<br />
But placing Jesus in Nazareth makes sense precisely because it is a little-known village, because if someone had placed him in Jerusalem or Bethlehem or in the city of Rome itself where he talked with the emperor in the palace, it would be easier to verify whether it is true.<br />
<br />
<br />
<span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">#2 the gospels describe that the people and his own family did not accept Jesus and that he was not welcome in many places such as Nazareth, Chorazin, Bethsaida, Capernaum, etc., which the writers and tradition certainly would not have invented.</span><br />
<br />
it makes sense if you're inventing some very popular character who performed huge miracles, but no one has heard of. They invented this rejection as the reason why no one heard about him because the Jews and similar people supposedly covered it up, so it was forbidden to even talk about him. So you could have even lived in Nazareth your whole life and never heard of him.<br />
A similar, if not the same, technique is used by ufologists who invent encounters with extraterrestrials that no one has heard of. Here is the alleged Roswell spaceship crash in 1947: an alien spaceship crashed near a small rural town and the aliens were talking to people, but no one heard about it for decades because the US government covered it up and the soldiers threatened the locals to keep quiet.<br />
And then of course there are contradictions because in one part of the Gospels the angel announces to Mary that she will give birth to a god, and later she thinks that Jesus is crazy, and then she accepts him again; people don't want him in some places, and then they celebrate and follow him again, and then again those same people don't want to save him from death.<br />
<br />
<br />
<span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">#3Jesus talked to women, madmen, and beggars, which was a shame, so surely no one would have invented that.</span><br />
<br />
That's exactly what someone would make up if he was trying to push a non-existent character because these are all people who leave no written trace nor does anyone talk to them, so you can't confirm it, because if the gospels claimed that Jesus talked to some famous intellectual and convinced him of his "philosophy", then people would ask why that intellectual did not write it down. Moreover, if Jesus really had an important message for humanity, then it would have been more logical if he had gone to some intellectual centers (such as Alexandria, Rome, Athens) and convinced the intellectuals there, because he would have become famous that quickly.<br />
Indeed, if someone decided to investigate and thus went to Nazareth and talk to mad people, the chances are very good that he would get an affirmative answer if he asked some random madman if he talked to the "son of god".]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[You've heard it before that some of the claims and stories in the gospels are too embarrassing to be fabricated, so therefore they uncover some truthful lines from the life of historical Jesus.<br />
<br />
But aside from the fact that many fictional characters and other gods also have embarrassing elements, I would rather concentrate on the fact that it seems to me that those embarrassing moments actually prove even more that Jesus was fabricated. So I would like to hear your opinion.<br />
<br />
<span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">#1 Jesus had to be from Nazareth because it is a small, obscure village, so there is no reason why someone would put Jesus there, but they would rather put him in a bigger respectable town.</span><br />
<br />
But placing Jesus in Nazareth makes sense precisely because it is a little-known village, because if someone had placed him in Jerusalem or Bethlehem or in the city of Rome itself where he talked with the emperor in the palace, it would be easier to verify whether it is true.<br />
<br />
<br />
<span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">#2 the gospels describe that the people and his own family did not accept Jesus and that he was not welcome in many places such as Nazareth, Chorazin, Bethsaida, Capernaum, etc., which the writers and tradition certainly would not have invented.</span><br />
<br />
it makes sense if you're inventing some very popular character who performed huge miracles, but no one has heard of. They invented this rejection as the reason why no one heard about him because the Jews and similar people supposedly covered it up, so it was forbidden to even talk about him. So you could have even lived in Nazareth your whole life and never heard of him.<br />
A similar, if not the same, technique is used by ufologists who invent encounters with extraterrestrials that no one has heard of. Here is the alleged Roswell spaceship crash in 1947: an alien spaceship crashed near a small rural town and the aliens were talking to people, but no one heard about it for decades because the US government covered it up and the soldiers threatened the locals to keep quiet.<br />
And then of course there are contradictions because in one part of the Gospels the angel announces to Mary that she will give birth to a god, and later she thinks that Jesus is crazy, and then she accepts him again; people don't want him in some places, and then they celebrate and follow him again, and then again those same people don't want to save him from death.<br />
<br />
<br />
<span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">#3Jesus talked to women, madmen, and beggars, which was a shame, so surely no one would have invented that.</span><br />
<br />
That's exactly what someone would make up if he was trying to push a non-existent character because these are all people who leave no written trace nor does anyone talk to them, so you can't confirm it, because if the gospels claimed that Jesus talked to some famous intellectual and convinced him of his "philosophy", then people would ask why that intellectual did not write it down. Moreover, if Jesus really had an important message for humanity, then it would have been more logical if he had gone to some intellectual centers (such as Alexandria, Rome, Athens) and convinced the intellectuals there, because he would have become famous that quickly.<br />
Indeed, if someone decided to investigate and thus went to Nazareth and talk to mad people, the chances are very good that he would get an affirmative answer if he asked some random madman if he talked to the "son of god".]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Artefacts from history]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65979.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 02 Jun 2024 15:45:48 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65979.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Which historical artefact would you like to have or maybe already have?<br />
<br />
I guess I would like to have the box of popcorn that Lee Harvey Oswald ate in the cinema when he got arrested.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Which historical artefact would you like to have or maybe already have?<br />
<br />
I guess I would like to have the box of popcorn that Lee Harvey Oswald ate in the cinema when he got arrested.]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[The Historical Jesus]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65946.html</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 16 May 2024 15:19:39 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65946.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[So; I'm curious about where you guys stand on the reality of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.<br />
<br />
Do you believe that Jesus was a real person? Or do you believe that he was just made up by the disciples? How much of the story do you think is true?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[So; I'm curious about where you guys stand on the reality of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.<br />
<br />
Do you believe that Jesus was a real person? Or do you believe that he was just made up by the disciples? How much of the story do you think is true?]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[The Real Easter]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65885.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 31 Mar 2024 16:21:15 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65885.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[<img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Ostara_by_Johannes_Gehrts.jpg/440px-Ostara_by_Johannes_Gehrts.jpg" alt="[Image: 440px-Ostara_by_Johannes_Gehrts.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<br />
<a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%92ostre" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Ēostre</a>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Ostara_by_Johannes_Gehrts.jpg/440px-Ostara_by_Johannes_Gehrts.jpg" alt="[Image: 440px-Ostara_by_Johannes_Gehrts.jpg]" class="mycode_img" /><br />
<br />
<a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%92ostre" target="_blank" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Ēostre</a>]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Who in the tudman administration faked a war so that they could sell weapons, to whom]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65805.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 10 Feb 2024 18:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65805.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Just for you, Flat. Now this IS the topic, so answer his fecking question.<br />
<br />
Boru]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Just for you, Flat. Now this IS the topic, so answer his fecking question.<br />
<br />
Boru]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Croatian ancient river naming conventions]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65778.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2024 14:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65778.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[So, as I am sure many of you know, back in 2022, I published a paper called "Etimologija Karašica" in Valpovački Godišnjak and Regionalne Studije. My paper got mentioned by Glas Slavonije. In that paper, I attempt to use the basic information theory (collision entropy and birthday calculations) to recover the Croatian ancient river naming conventions.<br />
<br />
<div>
    <div class="pre-spoiler">
    <input type="button" value="Show Content" style="width:80px;font-size:10px;margin:0px;padding:0px;" onclick="if (this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display != '') { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display = '';this.value = 'Hide Content'; } else { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display = 'none'; this.value = 'Show Content';}"><br />
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    <div class="spoiler" style="display: none;"><hr>To summarize, I think that I have thought of a way to measure the collision entropy of different parts of the grammar, and that it is possible to calculate the p-values of certain patterns in the names of places using them. The entropy of the syntax can obviously be measured by measuring the entropy of spell-checker word list such as that of Aspell and subtracting from that an entropy of a long text in the same language (I was measuring only for the consonants, I was ignoring the vowels, because vowels were not important for what I was trying to calculate). I got that, for example, the entropy of the syntax of the Croatian language is log2(14)-log2(13)=0.107 bits per symbol, that the entropy of the syntax of the English language is log2(13)-log2(11)=0.241 bits per symbol, and that the entropy of the syntax of the German language is log2(15)-log2(12)=0.3219 bits per symbol. It was rather surprising to me that the entropy of the syntax of the German language is larger than the entropy of the syntax of the English language, given that German syntax seems simpler (it uses morphology more than the English language does, somewhat simplifying the syntax), but you cannot argue with the hard data. It looks as though the collision entropy of the syntax and the complexity of the syntax of the same language are not strongly correlated. The entropy of the phonotactics of a language can, I guess, be measured by measuring the entropy of consonant pairs (with or without a vowel inside them) in a spell-checker wordlist, then measuring the entropy of single consonants in that same wordlist, and then subtracting the former from the latter multiplied by two. I measured that the entropy of phonotactics of the Croatian language is 2*log2(14)-5.992=1.623 bits per consonant pair. That 5.992 bits per consonant pair has been calculated using some mathematically dubious method involving the Shannon Entropy (as, back then, I didn't know that there is a simple way to calculate the collision entropy as the negative binary logarithm of the sum of the squares of relative frequencies of symbols, I was measuring the collision entropy using the Monte Carlo method). Now, I have taken the entropy of the phonotactics to be the lower bound of the entropy of the phonology, that is the only entropy that matters in ancient toponyms (entropy of the syntax and morphology do not matter then, because the toponym is created in a foreign language). Given that the Croatian language has 26 consonants, the upper bound of the entropy of morphology, which does not matter when dealing with ancient toponyms, can be estimated as log2(26*26)-1.623-2*0.107-5.992=1.572 bits per pair of consonants. So, to estimate the p-value of the pattern that many names of rivers in Croatia begin with the consonants 'k' and 'r' (Karašica, Krka, Korana, Krbavica, Krapina and Kravarščica), I have done some birthday calculations, first setting the simulated entropy of phonology to be 1.623 bits per consonant pair, and the second by setting the simulated entropy of phonology to be 1.623+1.572=3.195 bits per consonant pair. In both of those birthday calculations, I assumed that there are 100 different river names in Croatia. The former birthday calculation gave me the probability of that k-r-pattern occuring by chance to be 1/300 and the latter gave me the probability 1/17. So the p-value of that k-r-pattern is somewhere between 1/300 and 1/17. Mainstream linguistics considers that k-r pattern in Croatian river names to be a coincidence, but nobody before me (as far as I know) has even attempted to calculate how much of a coincidence it would have to be (the p-value). So I concluded that the simplest explanation is that the river names Karašica, Krka, Korana, Krbavica, Krapina and Kravarščica are related and all come from the Indo-European root *kjers meaning horse (in Germanic languages) or to run (in Celtic and Italic languages). I think the Illyrian word for "flow" came from that root, and that the Illyrian word for "flow" was *karr or *kurr, the vowel difference 'a' to 'u' perhaps being dialectical variation (compare the attested Illyrian toponyms Mursa and Marsonia, the names Mursa and Marsonia almost certainly come from the same root, but there is a vowel difference 'a' to 'u' in them). Furthermore, based on the historical phonology of the Croatian language and what's known about the Illyrian language (for example, that there was a suffix -issia, as in Certissia, but not the suffix -ussia), I reconstructed the Illyrian name for Karašica as either *Kurrurrissia or *Kurrirrissia, and the Illyrian name for Krapina as either *Karpona or *Kurrippuppona, with preference to *Karpona. Do those arguments sound compelling to you?<br />
<br />
On the Internet forums, I thus far received two somewhat-serious objections:<br />
1. A Reddit user called <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">neuralbeans</span> thinks that my experiment is flawed because it doesn't take into account the possibility that the nouns in the Croatian language have a significantly lower collision entropy than the rest of the words in the Aspell word-list. If so, the upper bound of the p-value could be higher than 1/17. I don't think that's a serious flaw, I think that's a blatant ad-hoc hypothesis. What magic would make the nouns in the Croatian language have a significantly lower collision entropy than the rest of the words in the Aspell word-list? I can see how that can be true in the Swahili language, where due to the noun classes nouns cannot start with some prefixes that verbs can, but I fail to see how that could be true in the Croatian language. Furthermore, why would the collision entropy of nouns be lower, rather than higher? I don't think the burden of proof is on me to do a more complicated experiment due to somebody's ad-hoc hypothesis.<br />
2. A forum.hr user called <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">DarkDivider</span> claims that Proto-Slavic phonotactics didn't allow four syllables with yers to be consecutive. If true, that would make my etymology that Karašica comes from Illyrian *Kurrurrissia (via a Proto-Slavic form *Kъrъrьsьja) invalid, as *Kъrъrьsьja contains four consecutive syllables with yers. But I cannot find any reliable source claiming that or claiming the opposite. It sounds like a weird claim to me because phonotacticses of various languages usually do the opposite (requiring vowel harmony...).<hr></div>
</div>
<br />
<br />
<div class="modnotice admin"><strong>Administrator Notice</strong><br />Wall O'Text hidden. </div>
<br />
If I am right about the river names, that suggests I am probably also right about Croatian toponyms suggesting that the Croatian War of Independence didn't happen, right?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[So, as I am sure many of you know, back in 2022, I published a paper called "Etimologija Karašica" in Valpovački Godišnjak and Regionalne Studije. My paper got mentioned by Glas Slavonije. In that paper, I attempt to use the basic information theory (collision entropy and birthday calculations) to recover the Croatian ancient river naming conventions.<br />
<br />
<div>
    <div class="pre-spoiler">
    <input type="button" value="Show Content" style="width:80px;font-size:10px;margin:0px;padding:0px;" onclick="if (this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display != '') { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display = '';this.value = 'Hide Content'; } else { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].style.display = 'none'; this.value = 'Show Content';}"><br />
    </div>
    <div class="spoiler" style="display: none;"><hr>To summarize, I think that I have thought of a way to measure the collision entropy of different parts of the grammar, and that it is possible to calculate the p-values of certain patterns in the names of places using them. The entropy of the syntax can obviously be measured by measuring the entropy of spell-checker word list such as that of Aspell and subtracting from that an entropy of a long text in the same language (I was measuring only for the consonants, I was ignoring the vowels, because vowels were not important for what I was trying to calculate). I got that, for example, the entropy of the syntax of the Croatian language is log2(14)-log2(13)=0.107 bits per symbol, that the entropy of the syntax of the English language is log2(13)-log2(11)=0.241 bits per symbol, and that the entropy of the syntax of the German language is log2(15)-log2(12)=0.3219 bits per symbol. It was rather surprising to me that the entropy of the syntax of the German language is larger than the entropy of the syntax of the English language, given that German syntax seems simpler (it uses morphology more than the English language does, somewhat simplifying the syntax), but you cannot argue with the hard data. It looks as though the collision entropy of the syntax and the complexity of the syntax of the same language are not strongly correlated. The entropy of the phonotactics of a language can, I guess, be measured by measuring the entropy of consonant pairs (with or without a vowel inside them) in a spell-checker wordlist, then measuring the entropy of single consonants in that same wordlist, and then subtracting the former from the latter multiplied by two. I measured that the entropy of phonotactics of the Croatian language is 2*log2(14)-5.992=1.623 bits per consonant pair. That 5.992 bits per consonant pair has been calculated using some mathematically dubious method involving the Shannon Entropy (as, back then, I didn't know that there is a simple way to calculate the collision entropy as the negative binary logarithm of the sum of the squares of relative frequencies of symbols, I was measuring the collision entropy using the Monte Carlo method). Now, I have taken the entropy of the phonotactics to be the lower bound of the entropy of the phonology, that is the only entropy that matters in ancient toponyms (entropy of the syntax and morphology do not matter then, because the toponym is created in a foreign language). Given that the Croatian language has 26 consonants, the upper bound of the entropy of morphology, which does not matter when dealing with ancient toponyms, can be estimated as log2(26*26)-1.623-2*0.107-5.992=1.572 bits per pair of consonants. So, to estimate the p-value of the pattern that many names of rivers in Croatia begin with the consonants 'k' and 'r' (Karašica, Krka, Korana, Krbavica, Krapina and Kravarščica), I have done some birthday calculations, first setting the simulated entropy of phonology to be 1.623 bits per consonant pair, and the second by setting the simulated entropy of phonology to be 1.623+1.572=3.195 bits per consonant pair. In both of those birthday calculations, I assumed that there are 100 different river names in Croatia. The former birthday calculation gave me the probability of that k-r-pattern occuring by chance to be 1/300 and the latter gave me the probability 1/17. So the p-value of that k-r-pattern is somewhere between 1/300 and 1/17. Mainstream linguistics considers that k-r pattern in Croatian river names to be a coincidence, but nobody before me (as far as I know) has even attempted to calculate how much of a coincidence it would have to be (the p-value). So I concluded that the simplest explanation is that the river names Karašica, Krka, Korana, Krbavica, Krapina and Kravarščica are related and all come from the Indo-European root *kjers meaning horse (in Germanic languages) or to run (in Celtic and Italic languages). I think the Illyrian word for "flow" came from that root, and that the Illyrian word for "flow" was *karr or *kurr, the vowel difference 'a' to 'u' perhaps being dialectical variation (compare the attested Illyrian toponyms Mursa and Marsonia, the names Mursa and Marsonia almost certainly come from the same root, but there is a vowel difference 'a' to 'u' in them). Furthermore, based on the historical phonology of the Croatian language and what's known about the Illyrian language (for example, that there was a suffix -issia, as in Certissia, but not the suffix -ussia), I reconstructed the Illyrian name for Karašica as either *Kurrurrissia or *Kurrirrissia, and the Illyrian name for Krapina as either *Karpona or *Kurrippuppona, with preference to *Karpona. Do those arguments sound compelling to you?<br />
<br />
On the Internet forums, I thus far received two somewhat-serious objections:<br />
1. A Reddit user called <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">neuralbeans</span> thinks that my experiment is flawed because it doesn't take into account the possibility that the nouns in the Croatian language have a significantly lower collision entropy than the rest of the words in the Aspell word-list. If so, the upper bound of the p-value could be higher than 1/17. I don't think that's a serious flaw, I think that's a blatant ad-hoc hypothesis. What magic would make the nouns in the Croatian language have a significantly lower collision entropy than the rest of the words in the Aspell word-list? I can see how that can be true in the Swahili language, where due to the noun classes nouns cannot start with some prefixes that verbs can, but I fail to see how that could be true in the Croatian language. Furthermore, why would the collision entropy of nouns be lower, rather than higher? I don't think the burden of proof is on me to do a more complicated experiment due to somebody's ad-hoc hypothesis.<br />
2. A forum.hr user called <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">DarkDivider</span> claims that Proto-Slavic phonotactics didn't allow four syllables with yers to be consecutive. If true, that would make my etymology that Karašica comes from Illyrian *Kurrurrissia (via a Proto-Slavic form *Kъrъrьsьja) invalid, as *Kъrъrьsьja contains four consecutive syllables with yers. But I cannot find any reliable source claiming that or claiming the opposite. It sounds like a weird claim to me because phonotacticses of various languages usually do the opposite (requiring vowel harmony...).<hr></div>
</div>
<br />
<br />
<div class="modnotice admin"><strong>Administrator Notice</strong><br />Wall O'Text hidden. </div>
<br />
If I am right about the river names, that suggests I am probably also right about Croatian toponyms suggesting that the Croatian War of Independence didn't happen, right?]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[A TV documentary called "Mafia vs. KKK"]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65777.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2024 02:38:15 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65777.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Has anyone ever heard of a 1-hour long documentary called "Mafia vs. KKK"? I watched it on TV several months ago &amp; it was the most interesting documentary I had ever watched. I think it's from 2013, and it's not a TV series with the same or similar name.<br />
<br />
It was packed with so much information going beyond the Mafia &amp; KKK per se, even with TV commercial breaks. It explored associations between the Mafia with the Roman Catholic church in abolition or former Civil War Union states, and the KKK with protestants in the former Confederate south, and how they were in a way pitted against each other during the prohibition era. It also included how Hollywood was connected to this (mainly in opposition to the KKK). Basically, what it went over was how the former Confederate southern states along with the KKK were for prohibition, and how it backfired with the Mafia being involved in distributing it in the underground market.<br />
<br />
What I found interesting about it was how it presented the way the US developed in the early 20th century from a different perspective I wasn't aware of.<br />
<br />
I was only able to watch it one time when it was on TV, and I haven't seen it since then. I've been trying to find a way to watch it again.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Has anyone ever heard of a 1-hour long documentary called "Mafia vs. KKK"? I watched it on TV several months ago &amp; it was the most interesting documentary I had ever watched. I think it's from 2013, and it's not a TV series with the same or similar name.<br />
<br />
It was packed with so much information going beyond the Mafia &amp; KKK per se, even with TV commercial breaks. It explored associations between the Mafia with the Roman Catholic church in abolition or former Civil War Union states, and the KKK with protestants in the former Confederate south, and how they were in a way pitted against each other during the prohibition era. It also included how Hollywood was connected to this (mainly in opposition to the KKK). Basically, what it went over was how the former Confederate southern states along with the KKK were for prohibition, and how it backfired with the Mafia being involved in distributing it in the underground market.<br />
<br />
What I found interesting about it was how it presented the way the US developed in the early 20th century from a different perspective I wasn't aware of.<br />
<br />
I was only able to watch it one time when it was on TV, and I haven't seen it since then. I've been trying to find a way to watch it again.]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Does the Great Man approach to history still have use?]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65678.html</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 05 Dec 2023 14:36:09 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65678.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Opinions?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Opinions?]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[How connected to your heritage do you feel?]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65594.html</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 08 Nov 2023 08:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65594.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Do you feel connected to your heritage?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Do you feel connected to your heritage?]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Has pathology saved more lives than it has killed?]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65463.html</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2023 18:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65463.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Has pathology saved more people (by providing us with scientific insights) than it has killed? Before Semmelweis'es discovery became accepted, pathology obviously killed many people. Bacteria from dead bodies at the hands of physicians killed many people, which wouldn't happen if there was no pathology.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Has pathology saved more people (by providing us with scientific insights) than it has killed? Before Semmelweis'es discovery became accepted, pathology obviously killed many people. Bacteria from dead bodies at the hands of physicians killed many people, which wouldn't happen if there was no pathology.]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Is history best forgotten?]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65308.html</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 18 Aug 2023 04:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65308.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Only to be brought up at a later date when it is convenient.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Only to be brought up at a later date when it is convenient.]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Most notorious badass in history?]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65281.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 12 Aug 2023 20:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65281.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[So who was the most notorious badass in history?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[So who was the most notorious badass in history?]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[The biggest scandal in history]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65274.html</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 11 Aug 2023 19:54:47 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65274.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[What do you think was the biggest scandal in history?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[What do you think was the biggest scandal in history?]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[US Route 491]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65270.html</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 11 Aug 2023 01:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65270.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">Old picture. College kids kept stealing the signs to hang on the wall of their dorm so Arizona and New Mexico re-designated the highway.</span><br />
<br />
<img src="https://badinage1.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/eba684d59591c36e.jpg" alt="[Image: eba684d59591c36e.jpg]" class="mycode_img" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">Old picture. College kids kept stealing the signs to hang on the wall of their dorm so Arizona and New Mexico re-designated the highway.</span><br />
<br />
<img src="https://badinage1.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/eba684d59591c36e.jpg" alt="[Image: eba684d59591c36e.jpg]" class="mycode_img" />]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[The enormity of WWII]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65194.html</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 21 Jul 2023 19:25:42 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65194.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[There is probably no bigger and more shattering event ever in recorded history.<br />
<br />
In only 6 years, there were massive invasions, thousands of massacres, Operation Barbarossa, an incomprehensible holocaust, ballistic missiles invented and used, two nuclear bombs dropped. And all this is only the tip of the iceberg, there are certainly thousands, perhaps millions of crushing accounts of suffering, destruction and pain that were shrouded in the mists of time...<br />
<br />
Are we ever going to understand how enormous this total war really was ...?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[There is probably no bigger and more shattering event ever in recorded history.<br />
<br />
In only 6 years, there were massive invasions, thousands of massacres, Operation Barbarossa, an incomprehensible holocaust, ballistic missiles invented and used, two nuclear bombs dropped. And all this is only the tip of the iceberg, there are certainly thousands, perhaps millions of crushing accounts of suffering, destruction and pain that were shrouded in the mists of time...<br />
<br />
Are we ever going to understand how enormous this total war really was ...?]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Historical events turn into movies]]></title>
			<link>https://atheistforums.org/thread-65118.html</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2023 03:03:49 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://atheistforums.org/thread-65118.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Which historical events or lives would you like to see as movies or TV shows?<br />
<br />
Here are a few ideas:<br />
<br />
1907 Tiflis bank robbery - when Stalin and Lenin robbed a bank. 40 people died and 50 were wounded.<br />
<br />
Magellan's trip around the world. That was one nutty trip filled with superstition, cannibalism, and orgies.<br />
<br />
Richard Hunne incident. Hunne was an English bloke who was tortured and killed for heresy by the Catholic Church, who tried to make it look like a suicide. Subsequent trials showed that Church killed him which caused widespread anger against the clergy just before England broke ties with the Catholic Church.<br />
<br />
Lee Harvey Oswald biopic. There are several biopics about Ted Kaczynski and even several movies about John Wilkes Booth, so why not about this nutjob? It would also be helpful to show just how insane Oswald was because this is something that usually gets overlooked.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Which historical events or lives would you like to see as movies or TV shows?<br />
<br />
Here are a few ideas:<br />
<br />
1907 Tiflis bank robbery - when Stalin and Lenin robbed a bank. 40 people died and 50 were wounded.<br />
<br />
Magellan's trip around the world. That was one nutty trip filled with superstition, cannibalism, and orgies.<br />
<br />
Richard Hunne incident. Hunne was an English bloke who was tortured and killed for heresy by the Catholic Church, who tried to make it look like a suicide. Subsequent trials showed that Church killed him which caused widespread anger against the clergy just before England broke ties with the Catholic Church.<br />
<br />
Lee Harvey Oswald biopic. There are several biopics about Ted Kaczynski and even several movies about John Wilkes Booth, so why not about this nutjob? It would also be helpful to show just how insane Oswald was because this is something that usually gets overlooked.]]></content:encoded>
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