'Seeking' God

[lucent]

Believers tell atheists to seek God because we're hoping that you will find him, but really, when I began defending this argument I suddenly saw how insulting it must be for someone to say, "seek God" like you never once tried it. Which is why I rephrased my own advice by saying "with the intention to follow" but if you never have the intention to follow, the intention to defend, then the whole thing should be ignored, the search is pointless.

Since you have already made it clear that you have no intention of seeking or following God, then I retract my statement "seek god with the intention to follow and you will find him." It was a weak attempt to encourage you, but you are already firm in your beliefs.

I don't think you need any clarification about the homosexuality thread.

I have already explained the process for belief and how to change belief. I don't know what else I can say to help you. I believe you're fully capable of understanding me.

The part I didn't understand was you saying I could control my beliefs, or some such. I'm not really sure what you're suggesting.

However, on the whole, I'm fairly satisfied with your answer. What I'd like to clarify is that having acknowledged that the passage is insulting and not applicable to almost all atheists for reasons you yourself have explained above, that you'll no longer be quoting it at people. And that if it ever comes up among fellow Christians, that you're going to educate them on how much of a fallacy it is, and why it is so thoroughly unconvincing, so that some way down the line, some atheist will be spared from being patronised with it.

I'm not satisfied with your later claim in this thread that 'one of the religions MUST be right, but which?' since that is quite an absurd notion. I submit that as you say, they can't all be right, but they can all be wrong, which seems to me the most likely option.

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A. Acknowledge the possibility that you could be wrong.

B. Allow for the possibility that Jesus was a historical person. This is something almost all scholars acknowledge as true. Even Richard Dawkins admits He was a real person.

This leaves two possibilities. Either his claims were untrue and he is dead and buried. Or, His claims are true, He is alive, and will hear your prayers. Which leads to:

C. Allow for the possibility that His claims might be true

You don't have to believe this 100 percent, but just allow for the possibility. Then you can meaningfully seek Him out.

Ideally, through prayer, reading the bible, and attending church. If you are unwilling to do all of those things, at the least through prayer. This is what I recommend:

"Jesus, if you're real, please let me know. If you're God, please reveal it to me. Please lead me to the truth"

Right away or some time, it depends on how God will lead you.

He'll let you know, and you won't have any doubt it was from God.

You really can't see what a laughable answer that is? Your brain has been severely addled, sir.

Firstly, it did not address the most important thing, that being how I can go about forcing myself to believe in something. I always allow for the possibility that I COULD be wrong, however on the weight of the evidence presented so far, I feel confident that I am quite right on this issue. How does acknowledging that Jesus was a real person have any bearing on making myself believe in God? Did you even read my questions, or just peddle out the first thing that came to mind? One more time: How can I force myself to believe in something that I don't believe in, and if I have managed to do that, what's the point in the search, since I already believe?

I won't be trying prayer, because it doesn't work. I am reading the Bible for research purposes. I won't be going to church because it's a waste of time. This really gets at the crux of the matter, lucent, and it's worth reading this twice if it helps it to sink in. You should stop quoting the verse at people, because in asking folks to seek God, you're asking them to do things that they cannot (force themselves to believe) and/or have no inclination to (go to church etc) do. How stupid is your God that he would only reveal himself to people willing and able to doublethink in this way, and go out of their way to do things they don't wish to do, in a 'search' that could last a day or a lifetime and is only ended by some unspecified event, that really is just the first thing that the long suffering seeker cares to ascribe to God (probably for the sole purpose of ending their fucking search!)? That's your God's fault, not mine.

The last two things I have already addressed in my responses to salty. No information whatsoever. 'Oh, it'll happen at some point, and you'll just know'. Like I said, it's a way for you to tell those who don't 'find' God that they need to search longer, or harder.

Answer me this: At what point would you acknowledge that a search has failed? Indeed, is there EVER a time when you say 'no, this clearly hasn't worked for you'. And if so, is it ever God's fault, or always the fault of the seeker? I sense I already know the answers to these questions, but humour me.

This is your problem, and the problem of every other atheist I've spoken to. You refuse to do the one thing that God promised would yield results. Instead, you want to go about it your own way, and do it the way you think it should be done, to obtain the results that you want, according to what you believe God should be doing for you. This is exactly why you don't know God exists.

The reason you don't know God is precisely because you don't know the right way. Instead of listening to people who do know Him, and can instruct you how to find Him, who would intervene on your behalf, you think you're the one who knows better. Well you're obviously no expert.

If you're open to the possibility, you've given no indication here. This isn't rocket science, and you don't have to force yourself to believe anything. It's an incredibly simple concept anyone can follow.

Give God the benefit of the doubt that He does exist and ask Him directly to reveal the truth to you. Humble yourself, get down on your knees, and pray to God and ask Him earnestly for the truth. Ask Him for guidence and ask Him for faith.

You say "prayer doesn't work", but that's your assumption based on your belief that God doesn't exist. If you're seeking God obviously you have to allow for the possibility that prayer does work.

It's great that you're reading the bible, and hopefully you'll get something out of it. Try prayer and ask God for revelation as well. What do you have to lose?

[ElDinero]

Time, and self-respect.

I notice you didn't bother answering most of my questions there, so tell you what, leave it to salty, who is at least thinking about the problem instead of just trotting out the same old apologetic shit.

[Welsh cake]

Give God the benefit of the doubt that He does exist and ask Him directly to reveal the truth to you. Humble yourself, get down on your knees, and pray to God and ask Him earnestly for the truth. Ask Him for guidence and ask Him for faith.

What pray-tell will any of this accomplish?

Even Christians know this does nothing and apologists assert that man is too sinful to pray directly to their god.

[lucent]

Give God the benefit of the doubt that He does exist and ask Him directly to reveal the truth to you. Humble yourself, get down on your knees, and pray to God and ask Him earnestly for the truth. Ask Him for guidence and ask Him for faith.

What pray-tell will any of this accomplish?

Even Christians know this does nothing and apologists assert that man is too sinful to pray directly to their god.

Well, that isn't correct. Jesus said knock and the door will open. Praying that may not get you saved, but it will open a door for future dialogue. If you ask God for the truth, and show that you actually do want to know what it is, then He will lead you to it.

[salty]

Salty, don't you see there's something fundamentally wrong about asking us to seek God with a willingness to follow and then we'll see it's true; when we have every reason to think if we did the same thing with any other religion it would be just as likely to produce the same results? What you're asking isn't special to Christianity: it's common to any outfit that sees the gullible as potential recruits. If you want to attract skeptics to Christianity, this tactic is virtually guaranteed to have the opposite effect; we tend to steer clear of tricky sales pitches. You might have better luck if you demonstrate what is different about Christianity, not what it has that is typical of many religions.

I think I demonstrated that in another post when I asked how we could tell the difference and I explained the reason I chose Christianity. I agree that this tactic is not useful to woo people that see all religion as a trick, but it is not my intention to specifically woo skeptics, it's my intention to speak to people who are seeking openly or in secret. If they want to experience Jesus Christ they can.

[The Grand Nudger]

Those closet theists amongst us, unwilling to admit to longing for his "presence"? How absolutely un-patronizing of you.. Again, if your arguments and reasoning are only convincing to those who wish to believe, exactly how persuasive are they? Surely a better argument for the absolute truth that is christ can be offered?

[Erinome]

Salty, don't you see there's something fundamentally wrong about asking us to seek God with a willingness to follow and then we'll see it's true; when we have every reason to think if we did the same thing with any other religion it would be just as likely to produce the same results? What you're asking isn't special to Christianity: it's common to any outfit that sees the gullible as potential recruits. If you want to attract skeptics to Christianity, this tactic is virtually guaranteed to have the opposite effect; we tend to steer clear of tricky sales pitches. You might have better luck if you demonstrate what is different about Christianity, not what it has that is typical of many religions.

I think I demonstrated that in another post when I asked how we could tell the difference and I explained the reason I chose Christianity. I agree that this tactic is not useful to woo people that see all religion as a trick, but it is not my intention to specifically woo skeptics, it's my intention to speak to people who are seeking openly or in secret. If they want to experience Jesus Christ they can.

I was a Christian for most of my life, and although I really wanted to "experience Jesus Christ", I never did. Not even once. Maybe Jesus doesn't love me? If so, the feelings are mutual.

[salty]

We don't have to decide any such thing. You keep talking about god as a given but it is not. Nobodies buying what you're selling.

Since when did natural disasters or pain or misery have anything at all to do with justice, and how can justice be offered by a nonexistent being? It isn't the dead that have any need for this crutch, as you've made so clear in this post, it's the living who miss them.

Perhaps you should have worked a little bit harder on loving yourself, cherishing yourself, etc. What some fairy tale is said to feel for you is an absurd way to value one's self. How, exactly, can you even claim this in the same breath as the claim that you deserve none of it? That's in the bible too isn't it. Doublespeak.

All you've described here is wishful thinking, and how does that square with all the nasty shit that came with it, that you defend day in and day out as the literal word? I cannot stand it when people claim that there is some justice to be had here. Again, where is the justice for those god is said to have killed? Where is the love for those he is said to abhor?

Justice is a place where people are no longer suffering for the consequences of sin and that place is God's kingdom. Please don't try to speak of my personal struggle as if "loving myself more" would have been enough, if that was all it took then I wouldn't need God, what I speak of is much deeper than that, perhaps a part of yourself that you've never seen, it's about my true nature, which cannot be repaired by positive thinking and a couple good deeds. My true nature can only be repaired by Jesus Christ who knows the best and the worst of me. It's understanding that my relationship with God has created an entirely different path for me that was otherwise closed and created a nature of humilty which is needed to experience the transforming power of God.

I believe you have Christians in your personal life, have you ever heard a testimony? Have you ever heard what the Lord has done for someone? You may scoff at my testimony because you don't know me, but when you see how God has influenced the people in your life, touched them deeply and restored something precious, it may hold a different weight.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's a place is it? Can I get an address, just to check our bases? My true nature needs no repair. So I suppose that's not going to cut it for me. Why do your arguments consistently hinge on the bare assertion that I am broken? You'd have to demonstrate this as well as your god fix. It only complicates your claims. Why would I view your relationship with god as anything but an elaborate front for what you feel is self improvement, as defined (or as accepted as a definition for whatever reason) by yourself?

I view the personal testimony (such that it is) from the christians in my life with the same scrutiny I view yours. They all know it, I make no bones about it. This is hardly a different, or more persuasive argument than anything you've offered up to date.

Any conversation I have with the religiously minded in my life generally ends with "I don't know, you make a good point. I hadn't thought about it from that angle but honestly I still have faith, and that's enough" Fucking brilliant response. No excuses, no claims to knowledge which does not exist. No continuous assertions that the bible is the literal word (my wife doesn't swallow a word of the OT's history or miracles, nor does jesus need to be a physical person running around the countryside performing magic tricks for her faith to be workable and unassailable.) When I criticize your god, I'm defending hers.

[salty]

So basically it boils down to "I love god just because it makes me feel better"

You know, if you had just said that, instead of revealing half the things you've already said on this board, or twisting yourself in knots trying to make it justified rationally, you would have mostly been left alone.

It's much deeper than that summer. A relationship with someone can't be summed up like that. Can you sum up your relationship with your first love or your best friend in a sentence? No...the connection is deep and has many sides. That's how it is for a Christian. God has done more than "make me feel better" he has endure suffering with me, he's rebuked me, he's ordered my steps, he's provided for me, he's made a way for me to visit several countries and states, he's had me answer people's prayers (they told me after we talked) he has me helping people I don't know and sets missions before me that produce restored hearts...I believe in God because he keeps showing up in my life and producing nothing but blessings and love, even when I am suffering he blesses me. God is more real to me than the people on this forum who will not meet me. God will meet with me at anytime and delights in knowing me and changing me.

That is what I can express so far about my belief in God, but there's so much more...so many stories...so many times the Lord has intervened and saved me from bad decisions and terrible consequences.